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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2008 : 09:43:21 [Permalink]
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bng:
The most recent innovation in high altitude tethered wind turbines is to attach them to a helium balloon. With the possible exception of severe weather such a device would stay operational all the time. The reason for a tethered turbine is to tap the constant wind at altitude. And yes, they would have to be limited to areas not used by flight traffic. That isn't a problem though, since the areas with the best wind are likely avoided by airlines anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 11:43:12 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Thanks for the helium balloon input. Interesting!
What do you know (or not) about recent work in high capacity (megawatt) electrical energy storage. Battery or capacitor. I can't seem to find much from the usual sources.
I wrote to the Pickens Plan people (that just came out, I didn't plan it) and I should get a reply this week. I told them there was an important energy discussion going on in a Internet forum think-tank, and we needed some source material! How's that for artful misrepresentation? |
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 13:10:14 [Permalink]
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Hi Dave,
I was a bit taken back at your response. I have accepted that free markets do exist and are evident beyond question, so I thought at first you might be joking. Skeptical of the mere existence of free markets, and then an uncritical view of government that serves the peoples will – just seems ridiculous on the face.
If you can not see the total contempt of the government towards those it supposedly serves, and the disregard towards supreme law to keep their powers in check, you have not been paying attention.
“Money is a crucial command post of any economy, and therefore of any society. Society rests upon a network of voluntary exchanges, also known as the "free-market economy"”
Kinda bizzaro world lingo, no?
Taxation is a coerced exchange, and the heavier the burden of taxation on production, the more likely it is that economic growth will decline. Other forms of government coercion (e.g., price controls, regulations or restrictions that prevent new competitors from entering a market), hamper and cripple market exchanges, while others (prohibitions on deceptive practices, enforcement of contracts) can facilitate voluntary exchanges.
The recent yeti marketing creation, in my opinion, is an example of free market operation. Consumers of this information willingly exchange currency for the proof of this furry man beast. The free marketing through the media has been effective as well. Each step in the process is freely and voluntarily undertaken by the seller and consumer; the exchange and price is set in a non-coercive manner. That to me, is free market.
Yes there is always the looming coercion of taxes, but I have lived in many areas of the world where there is not a hint of nit picking philosophical coercive forces that effect daily transactions. You don't need to look further than Craigs list, garage sales and road side veggie stands to see strong evidence of free market operation.
E-bay may not pass your purity test, but in the real world definition, it is a good example of a free market. Even if you can't except e-Bay purchases as an example of free market exchange, (secondary coercions in the exchange), you might then look at e-Bay dispute resolution policies and feedback that are a free market function.
If this seems unsatisfactory, this tangent spirals further than I will indulge.
You were explicit in suggesting the government is the only solution concerning large social issues. This is fallacy, "myth". The nationalization of public works actually displaces free market entrepreneurs, and the evidence is again so overwhelming large on this matter, I can only suggest Google. Rothbard and Misses are a good start.
Eminent domain was used for much of the large projects in US history, for the “greater good”, and in the process permanently eroded our individual property rights. Without property rights, individual liberty becomes meaningless. This lack of public confidence in the markets to meet demands without government intervention, inevitably feeds and grows the government while diminishing our freedoms. It is not surprising that the government discredits the credibility of the markets to exist without their manipulations.
Obamas' embrace of government intervention on global warming is not appealing to me in the slightest. A worthy cause, possibly. Is it worth your remaining rights and liberties? Just be skeptical.
So to answer bngbuck, I know of no energy commodities in the US that have not been manipulated in the market by the government. Energy has been a nationalized commodity for some time.
I read this a long while back ~ The beautiful truth is that no matter what sort of fruitcake you are, you can achieve your goals through the free market far more effectively than via any government program. That reality is so muddied, it is not surprising that one thinks that they must clamor for more government rules and regulations to realize illusory utopian bliss. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 13:30:14 [Permalink]
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 14:54:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zeked
I was a bit taken back at your response. I have accepted that free markets do exist and are evident beyond question, so I thought at first you might be joking. |
There is nothing in the universe so self-evident that it should be beyond question. Such an attitude should be anathema to skeptics. I've asked people who should know of examples of free markets - especially hard-line Libertarian types - for such examples, and have come up empty so far. This leads me to the conclusion that anyone saying anything like "a free market will solve this problem" has little evidence for such statements, just assertions based upon idealism, but I'm willing to change that conclusion given a presentation of convincing evidence. Hence, my question to you.| Skeptical of the mere existence of free markets, and then an uncritical view of government that serves the peoples will – just seems ridiculous on the face. |
It would be, which is why I do not have an "uncritical view of government." You seem to have mis-read my comments.| If you can not see the total contempt of the government towards those it supposedly serves, and the disregard towards supreme law to keep their powers in check, you have not been paying attention. |
If you cannot see that the contempt is coming from the citizens and often focused upon themselves, you haven't been paying attention. Separating the government from the citizenry only works in countries in which the citizens have no mechanism whereby they can join or otherwise effect governmental change.Taxation is a coerced exchange, and the heavier the burden of taxation on production, the more likely it is that economic growth will decline. Other forms of government coercion (e.g., price controls, regulations or restrictions that prevent new competitors from entering a market), hamper and cripple market exchanges, while others (prohibitions on deceptive practices, enforcement of contracts) can facilitate voluntary exchanges.
The recent yeti marketing creation, in my opinion, is an example of free market operation. Consumers of this information willingly exchange currency for the proof of this furry man beast. The free marketing through the media has been effective as well. Each step in the process is freely and voluntarily undertaken by the seller and consumer; the exchange and price is set in a non-coercive manner. That to me, is free market. |
That's simply bizarre, because the "furry man beast" is a fraud, and thus the consumers were coerced through deception into their "free" and "voluntary" contributions.| Yes there is always the looming coercion of taxes, but I have lived in many areas of the world where there is not a hint of nit picking philosophical coercive forces that effect daily transactions. You don't need to look further than Craigs list, garage sales and road side veggie stands to see strong evidence of free market operation. |
The roadside stands are in competition with government subsidized farms (or can themselves only offer the prices they do due to subsidies they receive). And in all three cases (ignoring farm subsidies), as soon as a bad actor shows up (and many do), coercion arrives either as fraud, the police or a lawsuit.
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 17:53:06 [Permalink]
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Do you want to start a thread?
I'm interested to see the amount of interest here regarding the existence and definition of free markets. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 09:23:52 [Permalink]
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I think that part of the problem with using free markets in this situation is evaluating the price of immaterial goods.
Basically, no company has to buy the pollution it produces.
So, a powerplant that buy X amount of oil, burn it and sell Y amount of electricity, releasing its carbon without filtering will be more economically viable than a company that buy the same amount of oil; produce the same amount of electricity but use filters of sort to limit the solution it produces.
If you want environmental considerations to be included in the equation, you have to force them into it, because they are not traditionally a traded item in capitalist economies.
The only solution I can see for that, and I didn't invent it, of course, is to create a pollution-tax. A company would then be taxed according to the amount of carbon gas it rejects. If the tax is high enough, there will be incentives to invest in greener technologies. And, evidently, that requires some governmental intervention.
Plus, it should generates money which, in the best world possible, will be re-distributed as incentives and help for the companies investing in better environmental practices. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 21:29:40 [Permalink]
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Simon said:
| The only solution I can see for that, and I didn't invent it, of course, is to create a pollution-tax. |
I'm all for declaring all ecological goods and services public property, assigning them a monetary value, and charging for the strain/damage people put on them.
We are, literally, talking about the life support system our planet provides for us. Surely that has to have some value to us.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Obama vs McCain at Lake Forest
