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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 10:56:56 [Permalink]
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Dave:
It'd be interesting if there were a not-theocratic candidate that all secularists (and even anti-theocratic theists) could get behind to make a good showing on Election Day. Getting even five percent might wake some people up. |
Both Obama and Biden are pro choice. And, they both take a secular view of the first amendment and how the country should be run.
AS for Hillary's supporters, that is who she addressed last night. And in my view, it was a very strong speech. She asked them if they voted for her, or her positions. And if they voted for her positions, they have to vote for Obama because they have always been very close position wise. A vote for McCain is a vote against the principals she was running on and a vote against their own principals if that is what they were voting for. I think that Bill's speach tonight will seal the deal.
The fact that McCain's voting record really did support Bush ideals 95% of the time will be the deal breaker for McCain. It's hard to be a maverick when you spent the last eight years towing the bush line.
And Democrats in congressional and Senate races for seats up for grabs are doing fine, as far as I understand it.
Dave, I guess I think it's a bit to early to worry... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2008 : 11:01:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
...Looks more and more like the Democratic Party has turned into the party of self-destruction, being relatively ineffectual in Congress and undermining the party platform in favor of religious inclusivity. The person running the convention has apparently said that the Democrats are a party of faith. I hear that half of Obama's 2% drop in the polls over the last two months is due to an 8% drop in secular voters' support...
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Bill Maher made a point similar to this the other day on Larry King. (One of the few guests on King's show I tune it to see.) Maher basically said that Americans tend to favor an "authentic" party over an also-ran, even if its bad for them. In other words, if the Democrats start co-opting the Republican talking points, psychologically voters will think of the Democrats as second rate Republicans and choose the "authentic" Republicans even though they will get totally screwed. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 11:27:36 [Permalink]
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Bill Maher made a point similar to this the other day on Larry King. (One of the few guests on King's show I tune it to see.) Maher basically said that Americans tend to favor an "authentic" party over an also-ran, even if its bad for them. In other words, if the Democrats start co-opting the Republican talking points, psychologically voters will think of the Democrats as second rate Republicans and choose the "authentic" Republicans even though they will get totally screwed. |
I don't know. The Dems co-opted the balanced budget idea and it worked for them. Hell, Clinton even balanced it! And if it can be pushed, a case could be made that the Republicans co-opted larger government from the Dems, which has bothered many middle of the road republicans and conservatives too. (Not the neocons though..)
This road runs in both directions...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 11:28:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
[quote]The fact that McCain's voting record really did support Bush ideals 95% of the time will be the deal breaker for McCain. It's hard to be a maverick when you spent the last eight years towing the bush line. |
The 95% number has been in 2008. Previous years it has been as low as 67%.
Obama votes for his party over 96% over his minimal senate career.
Why Biden when Obama is running for change? Hasn't Biden been in politics for over 35 years? He is part of the problem along with most people in congress today.
Also, didn't Biden get around 10,000 votes in the primaries and Hiliary got over 18 million? Why is he a good choice if nobody wants to vote for him for president? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 11:42:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I am not sure that the secularist are so numerous as to have a very big impact. |
Polls aren't perfect, of course, but they indicate that the "non-religious" number between 10% and 16% of the general population. And I doubt that the proportions of conservatives and liberals among them reflect the national averages.| Especially, as I suspect that a large proportion of them would consider such a statement as a necessary cosmetic effort and would not keep a grudge on Obama for such a statement; especially considering the alternative. |
But it's not just that. The more I look at what the Dems are doing these days, the less they seem like mistakes or cosmetic choices, and the more it looks like they're taking careful aim before shooting themselves in the foot.Originally posted by Kil
Both Obama and Biden are pro choice. |
And still the DNC courted anti-abortion speakers for their "interfaith" meeting at the start of the convention, to which the non-religious were specifically disinvited.| And, they both take a secular view of the first amendment and how the country should be run. |
I'm going to need more post-convention convincing of that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 11:48:32 [Permalink]
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Robb:
Why Biden when Obama is running for change? Hasn't Biden been in politics for over 35 years? He is part of the problem along with most people in congress today. |
A change from the last 8 years, Robb. What cracks me up is that Obama gets criticized for not being seasoned enough, then gets criticized for picking someone well seasoned in the very areas that will help Obama. Fox talking points...
Robb:
Also, didn't Biden get around 10,000 votes in the primaries and Hiliary got over 18 million? Why is he a good choice if nobody wants to vote for him for president? |
As I understand it, Hillary wasn't that keen for the job and also Obama felt that with Bill around, He might have problems defining it as his own presidency. To many ego's at stake.
As for Biden, he was running against stars. His qualifications are great. I could easily see him in the number one position if anything should happen to Obama. We will still be in very capable hands. Shouldn't that be the number one reason for choosing a running mate? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 13:36:19 [Permalink]
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As said; I think Biden's choice allowed Obama to disarm two of the most common critics:
-Not experienced enough.
-Too flashy/rock star.
Neither of these critics would work very well against Biden...
But, really, the democrats need to get their act together, and the sooner will be the better. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 15:21:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
A change from the last 8 years, Robb. What cracks me up is that Obama gets criticized for not being seasoned enough, then gets criticized for picking someone well seasoned in the very areas that will help Obama. Fox talking points... |
Yeah, they send taliing points to me! I only criticize him for talking about change and then choosing a running mate with years of washington service. What has he done in the last 2 years of a democratic controlled congress. As much as the republican controlled coingress, nothing!
As for Biden, he was running against stars. His qualifications are great. I could easily see him in the number one position if anything should happen to Obama. We will still be in very capable hands. Shouldn't that be the number one reason for choosing a running mate?
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since when? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 16:13:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Kil
I could easily see him in the number one position if anything should happen to Obama. We will still be in very capable hands. Shouldn't that be the number one reason for choosing a running mate?
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since when?
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Exactly.
Why the hell have a vice president at all?
It's not like McSame is likely to have a coronary episode and die on us. Or get assassinated by a freedom-loving patriot.
You NEVER get yourself a Vice-anything to have as a stand-by to take over in case of unforseen events preventing Number One to perform his duties. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 08/27/2008 16:14:31 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 16:39:22 [Permalink]
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I suppose a certain amount of cynicism is justified. After all, didn't Bush choose Cheney?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 16:52:29 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
| I suppose a certain amount of cynicism is justified. After all, didn't Bush choose Cheney? |
No, Kil Cheney chose Cheney! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 16:53:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Kil.....
| I suppose a certain amount of cynicism is justified. After all, didn't Bush choose Cheney? |
No, Kil Cheney chose Cheney!
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Good point! |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 17:12:57 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: Why Biden when Obama is running for change? Hasn't Biden been in politics for over 35 years? He is part of the problem along with most people in congress today.
Also, didn't Biden get around 10,000 votes in the primaries and Hiliary got over 18 million? Why is he a good choice if nobody wants to vote for him for president? |
There is good evidence that Hillary didn't want the job. Plus, choosing her might have made Obama look weak, as if he didn't have a choice. This is politics. It's a game of strategy. There are risks with every choice. Obama is a fairly radical choice within the limits of that the political scene seems to provide. I think Biden was a good choice with regards to putting forth a balanced ticket. The Republicans would have provided critical talking points no matter who Obama chose. That's just how the game goes. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2008 : 18:27:43 [Permalink]
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Bill just gave a great speech, as predicted. I doubt if there will be many Hillary holdouts...
Aside from all the expected things, it was great when he pointed out that when he ran in 92, the Republicans accused him of being too young and too inexperienced. He left with a 65% approval rating.
Plus, Hillary released her delegates and called for Obama to be nominated by acclamation as a show of unity. Cool.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Obama/Biden 2008
