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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  12:55:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

filthy:
Republican ulcers are probably bleeding Amazon-volume rivers at the thought of the upcoming Palin/Biden debate, unless, of course, the moderator is on the fix.

I doubt it. With good prep, which she will undoubtably receive, and a few pithy remarks to deliver combined with her poise, and it won't matter how much Biden tries to pummel her. Issues will not matter if she gets a few zingers in. If she is still standing at the end, she, like Rocky Balboa, wins.
Worse than that, if Biden does destroy her, he looks like an asshole picking on her. Content doesn't matter, it's the impression they leave.

-Chaloobi

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  13:08:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

filthy:
Republican ulcers are probably bleeding Amazon-volume rivers at the thought of the upcoming Palin/Biden debate, unless, of course, the moderator is on the fix.

I doubt it. With good prep, which she will undoubtably receive, and a few pithy remarks to deliver combined with her poise, and it won't matter how much Biden tries to pummel her. Issues will not matter if she gets a few zingers in. If she is still standing at the end, she, like Rocky Balboa, wins.
If what I'm reading is correct, she's got a temper and is pretty vindictive. If Biden maintains his cool, and I'm sure he will, she could sink herself with a snappish remark.

But we shall see, eh? That's a debate I'll not miss.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  13:19:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think chaloobi is right. The Hillary nonsense showed us clearly that the retards out there will be sympathetic to the woman if the perception is the man is "mean" to her.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  15:44:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not familiar with American Presidential election history: has a woman ever been a VP candidate (or even been VP)?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  15:58:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I'm not familiar with American Presidential election history: has a woman ever been a VP candidate (or even been VP)?
Geraldine Ferrario, if I've spelled thet right (D), ran
against the first Bush affliction with a guy whose name I certainly can't apell. Ducakis? I dunno. 1988, if I'm not misteken.

Edit: OK, looked it up: Dukakis. They got slaughtered.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 09/04/2008 16:02:21
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  16:00:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I'm not familiar with American Presidential election history: has a woman ever been a VP candidate (or even been VP)?
Geraldine Ferraro ran on the democratic ticket with Walter Mondale in 1985.

And sorry filthy but they were beat by Reagan.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  16:03:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

I'm not familiar with American Presidential election history: has a woman ever been a VP candidate (or even been VP)?
Geraldine Ferraro ran on the democratic ticket with Walter Mondale in 1985.
D'oh! That's what I for not looking up the whole thing!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  20:04:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But yes, the elections are going to be historical either way, either the first woman VP or the first black president.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2008 :  21:48:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its too bad that if the historical event is a woman VP, that the woman in question will be more whacko-crazy than G.W. Bush.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  01:21:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OY et al.....

I believe that Palin's speech was as transformative as Obama's was.

Both speeches were accurately directed to each core constituency with overtones carefully tailored to the open vote, the undecided. The polarization of the body politic has been much more tightly defined with Palin's speech. The lines are clearly drawn.

Education vs. Ignorance; Rationality vs. Faith; Sophistication vs. Naïveté; Intelligence vs. Irrationality; Liberal vs. Social Conservative. The lines are clearly drawn.

Palin emerged in one fell swoop as half, perhaps the stronger half, of the Republican Party as seen by their core social conservatives.

The culture wars have not only been re-ignited, a vast "surge" has been introduced into each of the opposing armies. Obama's soaring rhetoric inspired sophisticated intellectual liberals and significantly lessened the party rift; Palin's gritty, y'all come join us now hoedown struck paydirt with the slow-witted, pious backwoods livestock that constitute a large part of the Republican moron core that elected George Bush twice.

These are the "far right", the religious wackos, the abortion abhorrers, the homophobes, the military worshippers. They had their doubts about McCain; but Palin has brought them back into the fold. Obama cannot touch them. Never could, for that matter. Most important for the Replugs, these cretins will vote now!

The money coalition, big business, the ultra rich - the fiscal conservatives - still have their doubts. Naturally, a massive attempt to buy McCain will ensue, secret deals to protect the oil industry in return for massive amounts of campaign cash. But McCain has shown occasional flashes of independence from big money and McCain, even with his drill, drill, drill mantra, will be suspect as possibly being loosely in an oily pocket with a hole in it. The Big Oil money will flow to him, nonetheless, and the dirty deals done will never come to light. Same with Big Medicine, Big Banking, etc.

Big Power, particularly, will move to embrace McPalin as their own.

An unfortunate schism developed in the Democrats due to the Clinton ego and the uncanny feminist devotion to Hillary. I feel that relatively few of these folks were core Democrats, however; rather people devoted to a personality cult or to righting a gender injustice. Many of them probably will not vote, but few will vote for McCain.

From the perspective of today, if the election were tomorrow, I think the popular vote President would divide in this manner:
Republican Vote for the Party 35%
Democratic Vote for the Party 38%

Vote for the Man McCain (as the maverick) 5%
Vote for the Man Obama (and his idealism) 9%

Vote for the Woman Palin (and her ideology) 10%
Vote for the Man Biden (succession concerns)3%

Republican Total Vote 50%
Democratic Total Vote 50%

Party Core Vote 73%
Swing (Independent) Vote 27%


Next week's tracking polls should show a dead heat, with McPalin's bump effectively erasing the Obama lead following the Democratic convention.

The only events likely to change the deadlock going into November are the four debates. Ironically, the one vice-presidential debate may well be as important as the three presidential debates in deciding swing voters, particularly the Neanderthals.

In my view, the issues that will decide this election are:

1. The need for a really drastic, monumental change in the way the country is governed - a total change from the Bush policies of the last eight years to a totally new and different governance.
Obama's vision of change versus McPalin's maverickism.

All voters want change, but for many different reasons. The winner in November will sell himself as the more credible agent of that change.

2. The need to correct the current state of and trend to further recession in the nation's economy. Tax issues, employment issues, gasoline prices, basic pocketbook issues, government spending and waste.

3. Foreign policy issues. "Win" the Iraq war or "Get out of Iraq".
Afghanistan, Taliban, Bin Laden, Al Quaeda, "The War on Terror".
Bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran; or negotiate, pressure, and coerce Iran.
Military answers to foreign adventurism - Russia, Iran, Korea, and the Middle East versus diplomatic, coalition backed coercion.

4.A Minor fringe issues concerning the real conservative crazies such as abortion of two-celled embryos, homosexual marriage, protecting creationism, the right to have, hold and arbitrarily use machine guns, establishing a Christian theocracy, charter schools.

4.B Liberal concerns with climate control, renewable energy, separation of church and state, woman's right to control her own body, complete social and legal equality for gay folks.

5. The relatively small Old Folks Club is really concerned about health care, the kids (up to 60) really don't give a shit as they still are immortal in their owm minds. It is not going to be a deal maker or breaker.

6. Immigration is important, and Obama just might get a cutting edge here if he can slice and dice with finesse!


So the bases are secure for each party, and as always, the swing vote will decide. Obama needs to persuade at least 10 to 15 percent of the total independent vote in order to get elected.

Simply stated, he must present himself as a more credible agent of change than McPalin, clearly state and sell an economic recovery plan, lay out a simple, definitive, program to end the Iraq war soon, and address the Independent's views of fringe issues consistent with the poll's picture of their preferences.

He has two months from today to accomplish this.

As always, the peculiar manipulations of the Electoral College will determine this extremely close election, probably including blatant fraud and voter machine fixing in close precincts.

My guess, as of September 4th, is that McPalin will be elected in November, along with a strongly Democratic Congress

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Vic Daring
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  06:16:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Vic Daring a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

6. Immigration is important, and Obama just might get a cutting edge here if he can slice and dice with finesse!


It struck me, watching the GOP gathering, that for all the hoopla and demagoguery over immigration in the last year or two, the Convention was largely silent on the issue.

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
Edited by - Vic Daring on 09/05/2008 06:20:14
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  07:12:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Vic Daring

Originally posted by bngbuck

6. Immigration is important, and Obama just might get a cutting edge here if he can slice and dice with finesse!


It struck me, watching the GOP gathering, that for all the hoopla and demagoguery over immigration in the last year or two, the Convention was largely silent on the issue.
That's because McCain doesn't want to piss off Hispanics or his conservative base. He has flip-flopped on the issue for blatantly political reasons. Better for him and the party to lay low during the convention than to open up what has turned into a mine field for McCain.

You can read about McCains troubles with the issue here.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  07:50:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bill:
Next week's tracking polls should show a dead heat, with McPalin's bump effectively erasing the Obama lead following the Democratic convention.
As of yesterday, Obama still had 3.8 lead over Mcain after Palin's speech. Not much, but it's something. I don't see McCain getting much more of a bump from his speech than he has already gotten from Palins. I await the numbers.

I have been tracking the poll numbers here:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/

Also, Bill, last night the convention trotted out a 9/11 film to demonstrate how the republicans have made us safe from attack. And they will continue to play that card because it got Bush reelected. Fear is the name of their game, and it works. With all of the Maverick crap they are pushing, there is a subtext that it's McCain who will continue to keep us safe, cause he is a republican. Republicans = safe. And they will continue to go back to that no matter how much "Maverick" his campaign pushes. And more than a few voters will give them the nod for that reason alone, and they know it.

Bill:
My guess, as of September 4th, is that McPalin will be elected in November, along with a strongly Democratic Congress.


We shall see. But McCain has opened himself up to attack on many fronts. Not the least of which will be to convince the voters that his record of mostly supporting a failed administration doesn't matter. I think he is very vulnerable.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  07:59:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
And they will continue to play that card because it got Bush reelected.
That's apparently very debatable. Bush may well be our only president to serve two terms (can't forget Ford) and who was never legitimately elected.

-Chaloobi

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2008 :  08:12:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi

Originally posted by Kil
And they will continue to play that card because it got Bush reelected.
That's apparently very debatable. Bush may well be our only president to serve two terms (can't forget Ford) and who was never legitimately elected.
Well, there is that...

One other thing. The incumbent party usually loses in times of economic downturn. Since he and Bush are both supply-siders, and he indicated no change of direction on that front that I could discern, this becomes a serous problem for McCain.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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