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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:08:59 [Permalink]
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Another thought on the movie...
I live in Florida, I went to see this movie Wednesday at an afternoon (1:45pm) showing. There were quite a few people in the audience, no one got up and walked out.... and there were a suprising number of older people.
With the number of dumbass crazy religious people who live in this state I was pleasantly surprised by the number of people seeing this movie in the middle of a weekday.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 09:20:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
One could make a similar argument for Expelled. |
Actually, the only person who has said he wouldn't have spoken with the Expelled folks if they had been honest is Richard Dawkins. PZ Myers, on the other hand, said he would have said a lot more if they'd told him the truth. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 10:12:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Originally posted by astropin
Well unfortunately I think it would be virtually impossible for him to make it any other way.....no religious person is going to interview with Bill Maher knowing what the films is about. Shitty maybe....but obvious.
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One could make a similar argument for Expelled.
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Yes....one could. As I said...shitty tactic, but also an obvious one. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:38:12 [Permalink]
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That isn't a lazy argument, its a statement of fact. No one is purely rational. |
I called it lazy because, ultimately, it is a bit of a platitude that does not mean much.
I don't like stating platitudes much, I always try to at least equip my ideas with breast implants before sending them in the wide world.
| The issue is when you accept irrational explanations and base portions of your life or actions on the irrational premises. |
But, if we all are irrational at time, we all do it to an extend so it is mostly a matter of degree.
Which degree of irrational is acceptable? I will be pragmatic and say, 'until it have a significant impact on your or other's quality of life'.
| There are many examples in history, the crusades, the burning of "witches", the rise of fundamentalism in the US, suicide bombings, etc. All of those things arose from (arguably) more moderate forms of religion. I don't consider it a slippery slope to say that "moderate" religious beliefs give rise to the extreme. |
But the fact that some people had a vision of religion that lead to these abuses does not mean that religion will necessarily lead to these evil.
Especially, as, as you mentioned, some people have an absolutely innocuous practice of their religion.
In these case, considering that religion may also have some positive effects, why would it not be 'globally a good thing'? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 12:53:31 [Permalink]
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Simon asked:
| But, if we all are irrational at time, we all do it to an extend so it is mostly a matter of degree. |
There is a difference between being irrational in thought and in action.
If you look at some person and instantly are irritated by them, that is more or less irrational. The question is, do you act upon that irrational impulse?
In the case of religion people take actions based upon their irrational thinking. Innocuous things like prayer can even become deadly (turning to prayer instead of medicine, for example).
Personally I take things a step further. Acting on any unevidenced premise is an immoral action. Yes, they span the same spectrum as other moral criteria, like little white lies to whoppers. (pretty sure we had a thread on duty/evidence a while back)
| In these case, considering that religion may also have some positive effects, why would it not be 'globally a good thing'? |
Name one "positive effect" of religion that requires religion for that effect to occur.
You can discard the irrationality and still achieve "positive effects", no religion required.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:14:41 [Permalink]
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If you look at some person and instantly are irritated by them, that is more or less irrational. The question is, do you act upon that irrational impulse? |
Well, it happened to me in the past that hearing a specific person's voice just irked me. That was irrational.
On occasion; I acted on this irrational dislike by leaving the room. So, an irrational action, but fairly innocuous.
I could also have acted by punching her in the face. Irrational and much more serious.
In the case of religion people take actions based upon their irrational thinking. Innocuous things like prayer can even become deadly (turning to prayer instead of medicine, for example). |
Well; it would 'have a significant impact on your quality of life'.
| Name one "positive effect" of religion that requires religion for that effect to occur. |
Well; some dude is dying slowly of cancer. He knows that nothing can save him anymore but believe that after his death the fat ladies will bring him to Valhalla and, for this reason, feels a little less scared and a little less lonely in his bed.
If it can ease this guy's last days on earth... why not?
Another dude is an asshole. An asshole with money. He does not do the empathy thingy but still gives a bit of his money to charity. Not because he wants to help, but because he is afraid of what will happen to him after his death if he does not balance his sinful greed by a few good actions.
The dude is still an asshole, but the single teen mother can still by milk for a kid with the money regardless... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 13:32:02 [Permalink]
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Simon asked:
If it can ease this guy's last days on earth... why not?
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Because its a lie?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 14:03:20 [Permalink]
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Well, apart of the obvious ('how do you know for certain that it is a lie?'), I would say that, IMHO, it is everybody's right to delude himself with comforting fantasies rather than to face a cold reality. To paraphrase Astro.
A white lie, of sort. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 14:50:37 [Permalink]
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I saw this movie last night and liked it a lot better than I expected to. I was worried that Maher would be overly condescending and over-the-top. Perhaps he was but a good director left those scenes on the cutting room floor. I thought the last few minutes were the worst. Too many explosions. Sure, I agree with the point but no need to bludgeon us with it.
One of my favorite moments was when Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor puts his foot in his mouth by stating, "You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the senate."
Watch it here
I also found it amazing that the guy giving Maher and his crew the mosque tour thought that pointing out that women have their own corner to pray in is an indication of how tolerant and modern Islam is.
And how about that British rapper! What a hypocrite and too dumb or dishonest to even realize it.
In my opinion, the most important thing this movie can teach people is how ignorant they are about their own religion.
This may not be the best film on religion ever made but I urge people to see it, in the theater, and vote with their dollars so more like it are made.
@
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 15:16:23 [Permalink]
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Simon asked:
| Well, apart of the obvious ('how do you know for certain that it is a lie?'), |
In the context of the, literally, thousands of different religions and other mythologies that people have claimed (without evidence) to be "true"... it is a safe assumption that stories about life after death are simple fantasy.
Do I know it for certain? Obviously not, but I can absolutely dismiss it as a fairytale until you (or anyone) can demonstrate such a thing is true.
I'm sure you know this game Simon, I can make any insane claim then challenge you to prove it not true.
Why not offer a person comfort by recognizing their contributions to this life? By having family and friends be near in their final hours? Religion is not required.
| I would say that, IMHO, it is everybody's right to delude himself with comforting fantasies rather than to face a cold reality |
I completely disagree. We have a duty to follow the evidence, and a moral obligation to take actions based on that evidence. Clearly this can't always be followed perfectly, but we have an obligation to get as close as we can.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 17:47:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I would say that, IMHO, it is everybody's right to delude himself with comforting fantasies rather than to face a cold reality. |
Actually, a good case can be made that they don't have that right.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/09/2008 17:59:35 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2008 : 09:05:47 [Permalink]
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Well, as it turns out I saw “Religulous” on Sunday. After not seeing a movie in a theater for almost four months, Michelle and I decided to see Bill Maher's homage to his own intellect and comedic skills of which I found both lacking.
Sure, there were funny parts.
His interview with Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor was an exceptional standout moment. But moments like that one were few.
Telling the religious that he's only there to ask questions, and then interrupting those mostly out on the fringe people with old arguments that most of us used as budding atheists and agnostics back in high school seemed both rude and pointless, when the silliness of their answers would have sufficed even for comedic effect. As I said in an earlier post, making foolish people look foolish is no great trick and Maher's debates with those folks added nothing but a great big wink at the audience. “Look, he's such a fool and I'm so smart.”
Maher's insights weren't all that insightful, but they came often, mostly from a car he was a passenger in, ostensibly on his way to interview one nut-ball or another.
My hat is off to the editor who saved this mess from being a complete bore. Some of those old clips were drop dead funny, or scary, and were often way more effective than Maher's attempts at being as smart or as funny as he thinks he is.
Which reminds me. There is an old documentary movie called "Atomic Cafe" that made its point by using news clips and archival footage alone. I think that approach would have made for a better and more effective movie. Throw out Maher and keep the clips. Someone should make that movie.
Save your money unless you enjoy choir status and anything anti religion gets you off.
Or, for some depth at depicting the dangers of fundamentalism, though not strictly anti religion, rent the 1960 version of "Inherit the Wind ". Now that's a movie…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Religulous - Recommendation
