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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 17:19:06 [Permalink]
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I think this begins to spell out what I mean by aggressor.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/print/20080729_acts_of_war/
Iran has not threatened anyone. There is no evidence that Iran has done anything worthy of these attacks and threats.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/09/2008 : 19:45:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Who wants to vote for either of these clowns. The first thing McCain says is that he wants the government to spend more of our money to buy bad mortgages and reduce the principle on them. Maybe I heard wrong but what?
Neither clown could follow the rules that their campaigns agreed to, no wonder our government cannot follow its own rules.
Nothing new was said, both clowns distorted the other clowns views and policies while only talking about the points in their own plans that they think we would like.
If you are rich or poor in this country do these clowns have anything to offer you? All they talk about is "main street". Does all this country care abnout is money? I agree things are bad, and need to be addressed but there are still homeless, poor, hungry and sick in this country that has never been addressed in this campaign by any clown running for president. I am concerned about my money and how it will impact my job and how I will provide for my family. But I will be ok, I am lucky to have a family and a good education. What happens to people that don't? Shouldn't government have a responsibility to all americans, especially the people that cannot help themselves, not just the ones that will get them elected?
If congress has single didget approval ratings then why are we going to elect the same clowns into office in November? I say vote them all out and let them reapply for their jobs in the next election. I am personnaly voting for any canidate for any position that is not the incumbant and I am not voting for either major presidential canidate.
Sorry for the rant.
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I'm going to hazard a guess that your choice will be Libertarian. Bob Barr is their candidate and he seems pretty close to your mindset when it comes to religion. He's also a fiscal and social conservative. Again, kinda close to where you seem to come from when arguing a point. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 19:51:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Simon
Did McLame just avoid shaking Obama's hand?
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That was terrible. Along with referring to his fellow Senator as "that one," I really do think McCain has expressed both his personal racism and signalled racists in general that he's one of the "good ol' boys."
I also believe that McCain is a spiteful and vindictive man who never forgets nor forgives anyone who ever crosses him. (I think this is why he has Karl Rove's lackey Steve Schmidt on his staff, but not Rove himself. Rove did nasty things to John during his 2000 campaign for president, and John just can't stand him.)
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I am not sure, as maybe the shake occurred out of camera.
Otherwise; McCain might just be pissed, he is loosing the race and probably realized that he got trounced during the debate. McCain is, by all accounts, easily irritable. It is not necessarily racism (didn't he adopt a black child?).
But, really, if it happened, it is in bad form and comes out as petty and unpersonable... it's going to cost him points.
Same reason why he only stayed the minimum of time. Really the guy is not fit to be president if he can not control his temper better.
It might also be a sign that he does not believe in victory any more and is just going through the minimal amount of efforts...
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Nope. No shake past the opening one.
Cindy McCain was approached by Michelle Obama. Michelle Obama offered her hand for a handshake. Cindy McCain turned and walked away from her. Major gladhanding while the cameras were on. The Cheif Petty Officer who asked a question during the debate was trying to get to McCain to shake his hand and talk to him some more. Then the camera lights went off and John and Cindy McCain left. The Obamas continued to gladhand and specifically sought out the CPO to shake his hand and talk to him.
I guess John only cares when the cameras are on and Obama learned from Clinton how to really connect with the voters.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 20:00:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
I agree with universal health care, even Martians should have good health coverage. I do agree that everyone should have health care but I just do not agree that having the government running it in the US is a good idea. |
Who then? At the very least, insurance companies should be not for profit entities. But how do we get that kind of restructuring done? Healthcare has been left to the privet sector and just look at where we are now. The health insurance companies look at the bottom line first because they must preform for shareholders. How do we get them to change without serious government intervention? The idea that the privet sector will ever provide universal healthcare is magical thinking. Why should they?
I just don't see a way that every person can be insured, no matter what their income is, without a government program. It's simply not possible.
I think it's telling that Obama said that healthcare is a right. McCain couldn't bring himself to go there.
Don't get me wrong. I am highly skeptical that Obama's plan will result in universal healthcare. Not unless even a significantly reduced cost of healthcare is paid for out of some kind of public fund for people who have trouble even paying the rent and can't afford another bill to pay.
By the way, McCain's plan is absurd. There are plenty of people working close or below the poverty level. Offering them a 5000 dollar tax credit to buy healthcare, when they don't even pay taxes, or pay very little, will buy them nothing because they will receive nothing. Perhaps McCain has failed to look at the cost of premiums and the deductibles that go with them. The working poor would be fucked and even the lower middle class would be hardly better off than they are now. The deductibles on affordable insurance, and the limits on those plans, which usually won't insure people with pre-existing conditions, do not provide adequate coverage and regularly push those people into bankruptcy if they actually do get sick.
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Obama's health plan as I understand it is not universal healthcare (socialized medicine). Instead it is a combination of a government subsidy to help employers get health plans, tax breaks for small businesses to offer health care plans, and a government insuring block (much as group insurance brokers do now) to give the uninsured reasonable rates. While potentially costly, it is no where near the cost of socialized medicine. Plus, he talks about making some legislative changes to make (like Illinois already does for pregnancy) pre-existing condition riders illegal.
McCain's plan of giving $5,000 as a tax credit for health insurance AND for the first time taxing as income the employer's share of healthcare is insane. It does nothing for the poor who don't have health insurance. It bends over the middle class and bangs them up the poop pipe if they have health insurance.
I work for a health insurance company. I get paid pretty well. My employer's portion of my health insurance is $20,000 per year. At my current tax rate, the credit is pretty much a wash.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2008 : 20:21:34 [Permalink]
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I respectfully disagree.
Iran has in the past and even recently threatened openly to destroy Isreal. Iran has taken a US Embassy by force and held US citizens hostage. Iran has used chemical weapons against Iraq during their little dust up before G. H. W. Bush and a coalition force threw Iraq out of Kuwait. Iran has sent out military boats to intercept and harrass US commercial and military vessels in a provocative manner.
<clipped out reference to USS Stark (FFG-31) because it was hit by an Iraqi missile>>
Iran's ruling imams have expressed real intent to destroy Isreal and the United States. Since Iran is a theocracy, the prime minister is not the leader of the nation. He's just their spokesman. Sort of like the Iraqi Information Minister.
They currently lack that power. The past Presidents (save G. W. Bush) continued to negotiate with Iran and was able to keep them from pursuing nuclear weaponry.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/09/2008 20:26:57 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 01:42:43 [Permalink]
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As I recall, the war between Iraq and Iran started when Iraq attacked Iran. Someone correct me, please. That generally doesn't mean that the one being attacked is completely innocent, but I don't think Iran militarily attacked Iraq first. The results were brutal, thanks in part to the backing of the "West."
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you speak of the Prime Minister of Iran, as I don't think they have one. Also, I don't think President Ahmadinejad said, as you probably know, that he wanted to "wipe Israel off the map." I think that has been debunked , again, please correct me if I'm wrong on that. I'm not aware of any current leader (I don't remember any leader) of Iran publicly threatening to attack Israel. They don't like the government of Israel. Neither do I. That doesn't make the government of Iran wonderful.
I wouldn't excuse the taking of hostages during the Revolution, but I'm not sure you're saying that is cause for "negotiations" now. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 04:12:08 [Permalink]
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From Obama's web site:
| Diplomacy: Obama supports tough, direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. Now is the time to pressure Iran directly to change their troubling behavior. Obama and Biden would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress. |
In other words, we'll talk to you, but your behavior is criminal, and if you stop your criminal behavior, we'll stop trying to strangle your economy, at least not so blatantly. We'll do it covertly. We won't of course, stop supporting those who would overthrow your government, both violently and otherwise. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 04:28:13 [Permalink]
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I am convinced that this "precondition" crap is either an unwillingness due to not having anything productive to propose (stupidity) or being afraid to look weak (cowardice and stupidity). Either way, the Iranian mullahs are in good shape and essentially winning the diplomatic fight whilst we dither about making threats, that, weakened as we are by Iraq, the blunders in Afghanistan, and the economic disaster wrought upon us by the ignoramus' leading our country, are all but empty.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 05:33:41 [Permalink]
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By the way, I don't think the article below is Ritter's best. He seems to start out by saying the U.S. is supporting MEK, then later he says "IF." The U.S. denies this of course.
I think this paragraph by Phyllis Bennis sums up the problem:
It has been known for years that what Iran wants, beyond the specifics, is a security guarantee from the U.S. - giving up "regime change" or other efforts to attack or undermine Iran. Such a guarantee cannot be offered by the UN, the European Union, or any other country, only by the world's sole military superpower. But the U.S. has never been prepared to offer such a guarantee.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 05:36:29 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 07:57:03 [Permalink]
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I am surprised, I thought that Iran did spell out the destruction of Israel.
At the very least; it is one of the forces behind the Hamas that does just that on a regular basis.
Iran does share part of the blame with the Western powers and is certainly not adverse in using terrorism to further its goals in the region.
While I agree that the West has a lot to be blamed for in the situation, I do not think fair to say that Iran has never threatened anyone. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 07:57:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
From Obama's web site:
| Diplomacy: Obama supports tough, direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. Now is the time to pressure Iran directly to change their troubling behavior. Obama and Biden would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress. |
In other words, we'll talk to you, but your behavior is criminal, and if you stop your criminal behavior, we'll stop trying to strangle your economy, at least not so blatantly. We'll do it covertly. We won't of course, stop supporting those who would overthrow your government, both violently and otherwise.
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What you miss here is that their are grievances on both sides. I saw a very long list of Iranian demands yesterday that I don't have time to look for now. (I will find them later if you request them.) Some of those demands are not reasonable. Some might be worked out. That is why a negotiation is needed. A compromise is needed.
McCain is not interested in that.
And you will not give Obama the benefit of the doubt. You just see him as the next link supporting US criminal action.
So I don't know what else there is to say on this subject.
Go vote for an independent. I'm voting for a guy who has a chance of winning and might even do some good.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:14:49 [Permalink]
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| Well, the other thing to consider is the superstition factor. I've never voted for any president that won since Nixon. It's not a good thing to encourage me to vote for Obama. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:16:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Well, the other thing to consider is the superstition factor. I've never voted for any president that won since Nixon. It's not a good thing to encourage me to vote for Obama.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:20:25 [Permalink]
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I think that's what McCain and Obama are missing. They only see one side. I think the U.S. has such a criminal background that they need to pull out until the U.S. has rejected that past.
| What you miss here is that their are grievances by both sides. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/10/2008 08:30:05 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2008 : 08:35:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I think that's what McCain and Obama are missing. They only see one side. I think the U.S. has such a criminal background that they need to pull out until the U.S. has rejected these criminals.
| What you miss here is that their are grievances by both sides. |
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I agree with your assessment of McCain. One reason he won't sit down with them without preconditions is that he doesn't want to legitimize their government. What kind of progress will a position like that ever make? Obama is willing to respect Iran by offering high level talks without preconditions. He will personally sit down with their leaders, which does legitimize their government.
And just how many sides do you think Iran sees, by the way?
That is why negotiations are so important. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Debate #2
