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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2008 : 09:49:24
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Another stinking glob in the mess that W. is generously going to let behind for other to deal with...
Personally, I'd like the US administration to offer the American Nationality to anyone wrongly imprisoned in Guantanamo.
Because: -after years of wrongful imprisonment, the US OWE these people some form of compensation. And nationality to a developed country IS a valuable commodity, so, that's a start.
-for some of them, their government won't care if they are innocent or not and they won't make it further than the back alley closest to the airport.
-many of these people will be definitively pissed off. Better to keep them where the US government can have an eye on them rather than sending them back where they can be recruited/serve as propaganda tools by the bad guys (not Bush/Cheney, the other bad guys).
Obviously, it might be difficult to sell.
I imagine that Faux & affiliate will spin it into Obama welcoming known terrorists (wilfully ignoring the part about them being innocents)
Edit: Fixing a spelling mistake in the title.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
Edited by - Simon on 11/25/2008 09:50:55
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 01:06:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Another stinking glob in the mess that W. is generously going to let behind for other to deal with...
Personally, I'd like the US administration to offer the American Nationality to anyone wrongly imprisoned in Guantanamo.
Because: -after years of wrongful imprisonment, the US OWE these people some form of compensation. And nationality to a developed country IS a valuable commodity, so, that's a start.
-for some of them, their government won't care if they are innocent or not and they won't make it further than the back alley closest to the airport.
-many of these people will be definitively pissed off. Better to keep them where the US government can have an eye on them rather than sending them back where they can be recruited/serve as propaganda tools by the bad guys (not Bush/Cheney, the other bad guys).
Obviously, it might be difficult to sell.
I imagine that Faux & affiliate will spin it into Obama welcoming known terrorists (wilfully ignoring the part about them being innocents)
Edit: Fixing a spelling mistake in the title.
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Yes, that would be a very hard sell. I can't imagine any argument that would make that seem like a good idea. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 07:49:47 [Permalink]
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Other than "doing the right thing", compensating innocent people for harm done against them.
In most civilised countries, people who's lifes are ruined by miscarriage of justice are entitled to compensation. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 11:35:38 [Permalink]
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Yes, that would be a very hard sell. I can't imagine any argument that would make that seem like a good idea.
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Well, I just gave you four of them. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 13:50:23 [Permalink]
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| Actions speak louder than words. Don't just talk about releasing them in the US, start a movement, an organization, devoted to making it happen. Take it one step further, and help them find homes in your neighborhood. The timing is perfect not only does Obama want to close Gitmo, but just about every neighborhood has several properties available at deep discounts. Create an organization to buy empty homes in your neighborhood and offer them as gifts them to detainees, as part of their justly deserved compensation. What better way to apologize than to buy them a house? You'd be able to invite them over for a B-B-Q on a regular basis. |
When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 16:03:02 [Permalink]
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Well, first of all, not being a US citizen, it is not really my place to do so...
Plus, a lot of these people will want to go back to their native country and never hear about the US ever again.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 17:29:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Other than "doing the right thing", compensating innocent people for harm done against them.
In most civilised countries, people who's lifes are ruined by miscarriage of justice are entitled to compensation.
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Are you making the assertion that everyone held at Gitmo is innocent? |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 17:31:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Yes, that would be a very hard sell. I can't imagine any argument that would make that seem like a good idea.
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Well, I just gave you four of them.
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You did give four arguments. None of them made it seem like a good idea. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2008 : 18:16:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Other than "doing the right thing", compensating innocent people for harm done against them.
In most civilised countries, people who's lifes are ruined by miscarriage of justice are entitled to compensation.
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Are you making the assertion that everyone held at Gitmo is innocent?
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At this point? Yes.
Most of the people imprisoned at Gitmo were innocent to being with.
The rare guilty people that managed to find their way in there are not going to be released anyway, here the US or elsewhere so, they are not the point of this post. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 00:28:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Other than "doing the right thing", compensating innocent people for harm done against them.
In most civilised countries, people who's lifes are ruined by miscarriage of justice are entitled to compensation.
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Are you making the assertion that everyone held at Gitmo is innocent?
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At this point? Yes.
Most of the people imprisoned at Gitmo were innocent to being with.
The rare guilty people that managed to find their way in there are not going to be released anyway, here the US or elsewhere so, they are not the point of this post.
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I'd be curious to see what evidence you have for this assertion. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 04:12:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Are you making the assertion that everyone held at Gitmo is innocent?
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Jurisprudence of civilised countries says people should be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law.
(Please I'd like some input on my language skill above: I'm a bit uncertain how to treat the word judisprudence, but it was the closest word I could find) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 04:44:59 [Permalink]
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Considering the accused to be legally innocent until proven guilty is the civilized standard to which the Bush administration has failed to abide. That is not the same thing as "innocent" as in not wanting to kill every American they could get their hands upon if they were released. I certainly don't want those people loose in America. Even the (hopefully few) of them who were imprisoned in error in the first place are likely to be bitter haters of Americans in general by now.
It's one thing to insist upon human rights and proper justice; that's being civilized. It's a totally different thing to confuse a legally presumed innocent person with a nice guy. That's being suicidal.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 11/29/2008 17:20:59 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 18:01:52 [Permalink]
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I'd be curious to see what evidence you have for this assertion.
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First of all, as other mentioned, these people are all innocent, if only because they never were proven guilty.
Furthermore, do you know how these people got arrested?
When the US rolled in into Afghanistan, they arrested everybody that was suspected of being a Taliban.
That made sense at the time, because nobody was ready to let somebody slips out that might later prove to have been involved in 9/11.
So, one testimony was enough to get you arrested. I remember the story of a taxi driver that got arrested on a denunciation from a competitor...
To make thing even worse, the US did give money for denunciation, so people got denounced only for the bounty.
It actually is fairly well known and the military in Afghanistan never made much an effort to hide it.
The problem really came that this very temporary solution become permanent for political reason, mainly because the current administration would rather keep innocent in prison rather than admit mistakes.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2008 : 19:16:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
First of all, as other mentioned, these people are all innocent, if only because they never were proven guilty. |
Two points:
1) The presumption of innocence due an accused criminal is very different from being innocent. Even in our justice system, the accused are often held on remand, in custody, pending the outcome of their trial.
2) Prisoners taken in battle are not the same as accused criminals.
Originally posted by Simon
Furthermore, do you know how these people got arrested?
When the US rolled in into Afghanistan, they arrested everybody that was suspected of being a Taliban.
That made sense at the time, because nobody was ready to let somebody slips out that might later prove to have been involved in 9/11.
So, one testimony was enough to get you arrested. I remember the story of a taxi driver that got arrested on a denunciation from a competitor... |
Are you claiming that describes every prisoner in Gitmo? All of them?
Originally posted by Simon
To make thing even worse, the US did give money for denunciation, so people got denounced only for the bounty. |
I think you need to read that page again.
Contrary to Simpson's reading, the study does not indicate how many detainees were captured by bounty hunters. It merely refers to the detainees captured by non-U.S. forces "at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies."
Paying a bounty isn't the same as paying for a denunciation.
Originally posted by Simon
It actually is fairly well known and the military in Afghanistan never made much an effort to hide it.
The problem really came that this very temporary solution become permanent for political reason, mainly because the current administration would rather keep innocent in prison rather than admit mistakes. |
Approximately one third of the prisoners held at Guantanamo have been released. One might certainly argue that's not enough, or that the procedures for determining who are held need to be reviewed, but the fact that so many have already been released stands as evidence that they're not being held only so that the current administration doesn't need to admit mistakes. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2008 : 05:46:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Are you claiming that describes every prisoner in Gitmo? All of them?
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Do you have reading disability or comprehension problems. Nowhere did he indicate that everyone there were non-combattants and not Taliban. Just that the military was trawling with fine mesh when they should have been trolling.
Approximately one third of the prisoners held at Guantanamo have been released.
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...which shows that many who were captured actually were victims of circumstance rather than nefarious terrorists.
I can't think of more effective ways to manufacture America-hating terrorists than sticking innocent people in a prison camp and torture them for years, as has been done in Guantanamo. So perhaps this is a case of self-fulfilling prophecies.
Their provoked hatred and an inadequate defence will certainly make them convict themselves in a biased military court. Bush and Cheney won't have much trouble stacking the judging panel for an easy conviction. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2008 : 15:55:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Do you have reading disability or comprehension problems. |
I think it's desirable that people of different points of view be able to discuss those differences without resorting to insults. I hope that upon consideration you decide to agree with me on this point. Although I myself am not perfect in this way, I want you to know that if I ever say anything you find offensive or belittling, that in the interest of good communication I will make a commitment to reconsider my words and rephrase them in ways that are more productive.
To address the issue you raise, I believe Simon probably does not believe that every prisoner at Guantanamo Bay came to be a prisoner in this way even though the way he phrases his assertions suggests he does. In asking the question, I hoped to give him the opportunity to clarify his opinion without making any assumptions of my own, and in the process finding a point of agreement on which we can build further communication.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
which shows that many who were captured actually were victims of circumstance rather than nefarious terrorists. |
I wouldn't disagree with that. I think we can take it as a given that at least some of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are either innocent or at least are not guilty of anything so egregious as to be sent there.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I can't think of more effective ways to manufacture America-hating terrorists than sticking innocent people in a prison camp and torture them for years, as has been done in Guantanamo. |
I can think of far more effective ways to manufacture terrorists.
Most people who suffer an injustice do not respond by becoming terrorists.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Bush and Cheney won't have much trouble stacking the judging panel for an easy conviction. |
Bush & Cheney will be gone in just a few months, so they will no longer be in a position to stack any judging panels.
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One more headache for the president elect
