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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1618 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  07:46:44  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a link to an alleged photo of this guy when he was 67 years old:

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Most-Recommended-Photos/ss/1750/im:/081206/480/03f9c84673b3464cbf5428f3c5144e2d

Does anyone know anything about Cenegenics? Is this a load of shit?

EDIT:

Here's a link to the Cenegenics home page:

http://www.cenegenics.com/


EDIT 2:

Ok, here's a good article:

http://wtop.com/?nid=106&sid=1540118

Youthfulness an American obsession - at what cost?
By MARTHA IRVINE and LINDSEY TANNER
Associated Press Writers

LAS VEGAS (AP) - It's one of those photos that make you do a double-take. Dr. Jeffry Life stands in jeans, his shirt off. His face is that of a distinguished-looking grandpa; his head is balding, and what hair there is is white. But his 69-year-old body looks like it belongs to a muscle-bound 30-year-old.

The photo regularly runs in ads for the Cenegenics Medical Institute, a Las Vegas-based clinic that specializes in "age management," a growing field in a society obsessed with staying young. Life, who swears that's his real last name, also keeps a framed copy of the photo on his office wall at Cenegenics.

"He's the man!" patient Ed Detwiler says teasingly, pointing to the photo of the doctor who, in many ways, has become his role model.

Detwiler, 47, has been Life's patient for more than three years. In that time, he has adopted the regimen that his doctor also follows _ drastically changing his exercise and eating habits and injecting himself each day with human growth hormone. He also receives weekly testosterone injections.

He does it because it makes him feel better, more energetic, clear-minded.

He does it because he wants to live a long, healthy life.

"If I were stooped over and bedridden, what kind of quality of life is that?" asks Detwiler, a real estate developer in suburban Las Vegas who says he's doing this, in part, for his wife, who is nine years younger. "If I can get out and be active and travel and see the world and be able to make a difference in other people's lives, then yes, I would want to have as long an existence as possible."

<snip>

Detwiler, Life's patient at Cenegenics, is not looking for the appearance of youth. He's looking to extend his youthfulness, and his life.

He knows about human growth hormone and its controversies in sports. But this, he and his doctor insist, is different. While it is illegal for these kinds of hormones to be dispensed for anti-aging purposes, he takes relatively low doses prescribed for "hormone deficiency." The idea is to bring his levels back up to those of a young man in his 20s.

"My friends say, 'Oh, Ed's on steroids,'" says Detwiler, who has watched as muscle has replaced fat on his belly and elsewhere. "No, I'm not. Look at me. Do I look like I'm on steroids?"

He holds out his arms to indicate that his body is fit-looking, but not monstrous. "I'm not. I'm on hormone therapy," he says of a regimen that costs him more than $1,000 a month.

Besides human growth hormone, testosterone, and an adrenal hormone known as DHEA, his diet now largely consists of things like hard-boiled eggs, fruits, nuts, Greek yogurt, salads and palm-sized pieces of fish, chicken or low-fat beef. He also exercises regularly, alternating between intense cardio workouts and weight-resistance training.

"I can't tell you in words how great I feel," says the man who used to crack open a Pepsi to get him through the day.


Any thoughts on this? The exercise and diet are no-brainers. Surely the horomone treatments are the key to the dramatic results, though.

So how about it? Some of you guys are getting on in years, would you do this if you had $1,200 a month extra to drop on it? What if you knew the hormones wouldn't cause cancer or some other disease?

-Chaloobi

"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr

Edited by - chaloobi on 12/08/2008 08:12:47

Simon
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USA
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Posted - 12/08/2008 :  09:37:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with steroids (and yes, testosterone IS a steroid, the dose you are taking does not change the nature of the hormone) is that it will cripple your liver, as well depress your immune system. That is the actual reason why it is illegal.

Now, one could suggest that, in aging adult, the testosterone levels in the body are dropping and that the complement only bring these back to normal... But, hell, I'd need more than the opinion of a snake-oil seller to be convinced.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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chaloobi
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1618 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  10:56:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

The problem with steroids (and yes, testosterone IS a steroid, the dose you are taking does not change the nature of the hormone) is that it will cripple your liver, as well depress your immune system. That is the actual reason why it is illegal.

Now, one could suggest that, in aging adult, the testosterone levels in the body are dropping and that the complement only bring these back to normal... But, hell, I'd need more than the opinion of a snake-oil seller to be convinced.
These guys are doctors. I know that doesn't guarantee that taking testosterone at low levels is safe, but it's not the same as snake-oil. It's interesting to do a google search on this company - they're friggin' everywhere and it's pretty hard to come across an article that talks about what they really do or how much it costs.

To go off on a tangent, this is how I always envisioned any kind of real longevity treatment rolling out. A behind closed doors service that costs a hell of a lot, the sort of pricing that if you feel the need to ask about it, you probably can't aford it. So rich folks are getting the ability to live very long and healthy lives and the rest of us don't even really know about it, much less get to participate. I'm not suggesting that's what this is, but this is how I dreamed it would go down.

-Chaloobi

"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  11:10:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if they are real doctors, but the off-label use of a drug, realized in the absence of an actual medical need, without the backing of any scientific studies about its effect and secondary effects, is not real medicine.
FDA is pretty stringent about its procedure to get a treatment accepted, and rightly so.

So, I stand-by my adjective. No matter if the guys got degrees if they do not apply what they learned.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12673 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  11:47:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is some stuff on the two main drugs Dr. Jeffry Life is pushing.

First lets take a look at:
Testosterone therapy: Can it help older men feel young again?
From the Mayo Clinic:
What could testosterone therapy do for men with normal testosterone levels?

Some men believe that taking testosterone medications may help them feel younger and more vigorous as they age. But while studies show that testosterone therapy can restore your testosterone level to that of your youth, it isn't clear that there's any benefit to this. And it isn't clear if a higher testosterone level can help you live longer.

Few rigorous studies have examined testosterone therapy in men with healthy testosterone levels. Some small studies have revealed unclear results. For instance, studies found that healthy men who take testosterone medications saw their muscle mass increase, but in most studies the men weren't any stronger after testosterone therapy.
What are the risks of testosterone therapy?

Not enough study has been done to determine the risks of testosterone therapy in men with normal testosterone levels. In theory, a higher than normal testosterone level could increase a man's risk of prostate cancer or an enlarged prostate (benign prostatic hyperplasia). But studies haven't determined whether testosterone therapy could cause these complications.

Studies show testosterone therapy can cause sleep apnea in some men. This condition causes you to continually start and stop breathing as you sleep. Testosterone therapy may also cause your body to make too many red blood cells (polycythemia), which can increase your risk of heart disease.

Consider these pros and cons when evaluating testosterone therapy:
Potential benefits
* Improve muscle mass and strength
* Increase bone mineral density
* Thicken body hair and skin
* Improve sexual desire
* Boost energy
* Decrease irritability and depression
* Improve cognitive function


Potential risks
* Cause skin reactions
* Cause fluid retention
* Cause baldness
* Cause or aggravate sleep apnea
* Stimulate noncancerous growth of the prostate and cause or worsen urinary symptoms
* Stimulate growth of prostate cancer that's already present
* Enlarge breasts
* Stimulate growth of breast cancer that's already present
* Cause testicle shrinkage
* Limit sperm production
* Stimulate excess blood production
* Cause acne


And DHEA is no Fountain of Youth, Study Finds:

The supplement DHEA, widely marketed as an anti-aging supplement, has been found to be no better than placebo at slowing markers of aging. The study, published in the October 19 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, looked 87 men and 57 women over 60 who had low DHEA levels. After a two year period, people who took DHEA had no significant improvement in body fat, physical performance, insulin sensitivity, or quality of life compared with those given a placebo.

The results of this study aren't at all surprising. Eight previous studies have found that DHEA supplementation doesn't improve well-being, mood, or cognitive function in healthy older people. Three studies have found that it doesn't help with muscle mass.

But DHEA has shown promise in the treatment of lupus, adrenal failure, and depression, so by no means should it be dismissed as a worthless supplement. It'll be interesting to see what future randomized controlled trials find when they look at the use of DHEA in people with these conditions.

The study also raises a contentious issue: although consumers might assume DHEA is a vitamin or nutrient because it is sold in health food stores, it is actually a hormone. The editorial accompanying the study called for DHEA to be regulated as a drug rather than as a dietary supplement. Supplement industry insiders, on the other hand, say that it would limit consumer access and that the study confirms the safety of DHEA, at least over a two-year period.

More reading at:
DHEA, Mayo Clinic

I actually found more on this, including some stuff on Dr. Danial Rudman who Dr. Life cites as the main person who influenced his current practice.

I suggest this as a good read on the subject of Rudman and anti aging supplements:

http://ccjm.org/content/73/12/1039.full.pdf+html

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  11:57:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simon said:
The problem with steroids (and yes, testosterone IS a steroid, the dose you are taking does not change the nature of the hormone) is that it will cripple your liver, as well depress your immune system. That is the actual reason why it is illegal.

Actually, the reason anabolic steroids are a category 4 controlled substance (same category as narcotics) is because they are simple to make. Mexican knockoffs(but real) of US patented steroids are 10% of the cost of a US name brand. So anabolic steroids got caught up in the "war on drugs", conveniently, as a side effect their classification protects the income of the people who make them here in the US.

As for the side effects? Alcohol does all that, and more.

The "doctors" who prescribe growth hormone and steroids for cosmetic reasons... well, they are making a lot of money doing it. There are no long-term studies I am aware of (I have not done more than casual reading on the topic) that indicate their claims have merit. They may be MDs, but they are practicing well outside of accepted standards.

I'd also be willing to wager that most people could achieve very similar results just by following the diet and exercise program they prescribe. You aren't going to be musclebound, but you will be strong and healthy.

Now... all that said. There is evidence that suggests maintaining skeletal muscle mass will keep you healthy longer. Mind you, its on a mouse model.... Humans lose ~30%(or more) of skeletal muscle after you hit a certain age. It usually begins around 50 and continues on the older you get. Keeping that muscle could, maybe, keep you from becoming infirm in your old age, and extend your lifespan a bit. Maybe.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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chaloobi
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1618 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  12:09:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

I don't know if they are real doctors, but the off-label use of a drug, realized in the absence of an actual medical need, without the backing of any scientific studies about its effect and secondary effects, is not real medicine.
FDA is pretty stringent about its procedure to get a treatment accepted, and rightly so.

So, I stand-by my adjective. No matter if the guys got degrees if they do not apply what they learned.
Ok.

I'm thinking of these folks as a clinical trial. If in 10 years there's not been a class action lawsuit against this company by a bunch of guys with bad livers or cancer, and they're all fit and youthful feeling, well then, maybe it's safe. Not that I'll have $1.2k a month to spend on it. But maybe with a proven safety record, the price will come down as the masses show interest.

Of course the hormone treatments are just one part of the package. A better diet and regular exercise would make any couch potato feel a hell of a lot better. And it will allow you to live longer, all other things being equal. Add to that what amounts to a personal coach to manage your diet and fitness and regular exhaustive medical exams.... it's a winning formula even without the hormone treatments. Pricey though.

-Chaloobi

"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  12:25:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Simon said:
The problem with steroids (and yes, testosterone IS a steroid, the dose you are taking does not change the nature of the hormone) is that it will cripple your liver, as well depress your immune system. That is the actual reason why it is illegal.

As for the side effects? Alcohol does all that, and more.


But, few doctors I know prescribe alcohol regimen to their patients...



Yeah; I guess these guys could be considered to be part of a clinical trial of sorts.
But then, if these doctors really thought there might be potential as treatment, nothing forbid them to contact the FDA and organize an actual real trial... (well, it would probably cost a lot of money, but, surely, proving their treatment to actually work would bring them many more customers)

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
12673 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  12:29:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All I can say is there are so many red flags on Dr. Life's site that I wouldn't even think of trying out his product...

And there have been clinical studies done, with inconclusive results mostly, and a lot of warnings about using those hormones for the reasons that Dr. Life is pushing.

They aren't going to pay for studies. Why should they when they can cherry pick from studies that have already been done?

The bottom line is that those that do sign up are making themselves guinea pigs in an uncontrolled study that will not result in anything meaningful from a clinical standpoint.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Free The West Memphis Three
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1618 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2008 :  13:22:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

All I can say is there are so many red flags on Dr. Life's site that I wouldn't even think of trying out his product...

And there have been clinical studies done, with inconclusive results mostly, and a lot of warnings about using those hormones for the reasons that Dr. Life is pushing.

They aren't going to pay for studies. Why should they when they can cherry pick from studies that have already been done?

The bottom line is that those that do sign up are making themselves guinea pigs in an uncontrolled study that will not result in anything meaningful from a clinical standpoint.



Yeah, but look at that guy's friggin' muscles!

-Chaloobi

"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."
~Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  01:41:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Simon said:
But, few doctors I know prescribe alcohol regimen to their patients...

There are a few instances where IV alcohol is the prescribed treatment.

But that isn't really relavent to the point you were making. Let me re-quote you:
The problem with steroids (and yes, testosterone IS a steroid, the dose you are taking does not change the nature of the hormone) is that it will cripple your liver, as well depress your immune system. That is the actual reason why it is illegal.

Alcohol does all that, and more, and is legal. The risk of adverse side effects from anabolic steriods is about the same as alcohol too, if they are used theraputically (to maintain a normal testoterone level, etc) over long periods of time. In fact, they have been seriously considered as a male contraceptive, because taking them decreases your sperm count. You get into the serious side effects only when you take an excessive amount of anabolic steroids, kinda like drinking till you pass out every day will kill you in a few months, taking enough steroids to win the Olympia, and maintaining that dosage, will kill you too.

None of that has anything to do with why they are a category 4 drug though. That is all about money.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  09:30:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, my point was that steroids have many known side-effects so, they should not be used when there is not documented benefits in using them.

Alcohol also is toxic but, for the same reason, is only prescribed when the perceived benefits out-weight the risks (according to my knowledge of 'House MD', for methanol poisoning) :p .

Once again, we don't have any documented reason to believe that the hormone therapy is doing any good in this precise case.


As for their classification as a category 4 drug... I have no clues and will take your word on the subject.
I certainly know about several drugs that were made illegal for economic and political rather than public health reasons, so I certainly can believe you.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dr. Schibly
New Member

USA
1 Post

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  11:10:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dr. Schibly a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am a Cenegenics physician.

Our program is a comprehensive age management program. In addition to hormone optimization we also look for risk factors for diseases from heart disease to cancer to dementia. Our program is three pronged. First we conduct extensive blood testing for all your hormonal levels as well as disease risk factors mentioned above. We also do strength, balance and Vo2 max testing (an measurement of your aerobic capacity), cognitive testing and a DEXA scan to deterine your body composition and bone density. After this you meet one on one with an exercise physiologist who designs an exercise program for you, and with a nutritionist trained in age management medicine. You then see oe of our physicians for 1-2 hours. He or she goes over all your labs, conducts a physical exam and then designs a program based on your goals and test results.

We use bio-identical hormones and we monitor the levels. We also check for the formation of any undesirable metabolites and, if present correct that problem. Hormone optimization done in this manner is not only safe but actually reduces your risk of developing the degenerative disease mentioned above and has clearly been shown to even reverse some diseases such as osteoporosis.

And yes, Dr Life is real. He is 70 years old now. His recent photo is on our website and it has not been photoshopped or retouched. He is one of several patients who has regained strength, muscle mass and definition as a result of our program.

If you have any questions about the program, please contact me at bschibly@cenegenics.com.

B. Schibly M.D.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9441 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  21:46:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi
So how about it? Some of you guys are getting on in years, would you do this if you had $1,200 a month extra to drop on it? What if you knew the hormones wouldn't cause cancer or some other disease?
I'd probably rather spend that money on good wine, good food, women, boose and possibly drugs. And a 2 months/year rehab-resort. It's not the age that matters, it's the road travelled. That diet alone is major turnoff...




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Randal Carter
New Member

USA
1 Post

Posted - 12/20/2011 :  21:33:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randal Carter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm ... In the past, I used both DHEA and testosterone for hormone therapy. Could see nor feel any advantage to the DHEA -- took it for six months. My doctor kept me on a hormone replacement regime for testosterone for about five years. Did see some improvement in my moods and felt better for a while. Wasn't particularly exercising or working out but did stay somewhat active. Last year, I started going back to the gym and following the federal exercise guidelines of at least 150 minutes of aerobic and 150 minutes of non-aerobic exercise under the guidance of a trainer. My personal feeling is that the drug regime did not do nearly as much for me as eating good, healthy food, exercising regularly, and getting a good night's sleep every night. Cost me a whole lot less than a couple of grand per month.

Randal C
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Fripp
SFN Regular

USA
727 Posts

Posted - 12/21/2011 :  06:56:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Fripp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry Simon, but in reference to steroids, you're talking out your ass. According to the CDC, using 2007 as an example, the stats are as follows:

Tobacco = 435,000 deaths
alcohol = 75,000
steroids = 3

That's not a misprint.

The #1 cause of ER visits: alcohol
#2: cocaine
#3: marijuana

Steroids? #142

Why are steroids so demonized? Who knows? Many of our laws are in place for any number of illogical reasons. Marijuana hasn't a single reported death, but it's illegal and alcohol is legal.

Read these following side effects and guess which drug I'm talking about:

Depression, convulsions, anxiety, jaundice, myocardial infarction, eczema, abscess, vaginal pain, vaginal discharge.

Answer: Vitamin C.

Every side effect from steroids is reversible. As with anything, the problems from steroids occur from abuse.

Steroid fear is alarmist in the extreme. A great documentary to watch in regards to steroids is Bigger, Faster, Stronger.

"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"

"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"

"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?"
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