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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2012 : 14:37:08 [Permalink]
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To which I would add: if it is a legitimate therapy, it does not require advertisement exclusively in classified ads and the interwebs. Legitimate therapies tend to get, well, "noticed."
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2012 : 15:17:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
the bottom line with testosterone is that if a man has too little it can cause problems. This, of course, usually happens as a man gets older. Taking more testosterone than needed does not have any more benefit. There don't seem to be a lot of short term problems with excess testosterone (except acne, hair loss) but there may well be long term problems. Taking too much testosterone may also lead to more risky behavior.
I would recommend that anyone who is thinking of taking testosterone look up articles at the National Library of Medicine website or use google scholar. Also ask your doctor.
I definitely would not listen to anyone from Cenegenics unless they have done peer reviewed double blind research
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Very good advice. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2012 : 15:33:19 [Permalink]
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IntegreaterOne:
Any thoughts on this? The exercise and diet are no-brainers. Surely the horomone treatments are the key to the dramatic results, though. |
Earlier posts in this thread link to studies than suggest that either the hormone treatments do not work, and/or pose a significan't health risk. Here's a fairly recent meta analysis by the rather conservative health advocacy group, American Council on Science and Health:
The Use of Hormones for “Antiaging”: A Review of Efficacy and Safety
CONCLUSION
Despite the widespread promotion of hormones as antiaging agents by for-profit web sites,
antiaging clinics, and compounding pharmacies, the scientific evidence to support these claims is
lacking. In some cases, the evidence suggests long-term use of a particular hormone can present
more risks than benefits. Based on current evidence, this clearly is the case for hGH.
A number of randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials have evaluated DHEA as an antiaging
agent and essentially all were negative. While adverse events associated with DHEA in these
clinical trials were minimal, the long-term safety of this dietary supplement could not be
determined. The regulatory status of this hormone as a dietary supplement allows it to be
available over-the-counter and this raises additional concerns. The NIA does not recommend
taking any dietary supplement touted as an “antiaging” remedy because there is no proof of
benefit and risks are unknown.
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Considerable research has been conducted on testosterone in older men, but current evidence does
not support its use in all older men with low testosterone levels. The Endocrine Society suggests
that physicians should consider offering testosterone therapy on an individualized basis to older
men with consistently low testosterone levels on more than one occasion and clinically significant
symptoms of androgen deficiency, after explicit discussion of the uncertainty about the risks and
benefits of testosterone therapy. This was considered a weak recommendation, and one based on
very low quality evidence.
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The IOM has defined a research agenda for the study of
testosterone therapy in older men and this agenda should be followed... |
From the article that IntegreaterOne linked to and bolded:
Besides human growth hormone, testosterone, and an adrenal hormone known as DHEA, his diet now largely consists of things like hard-boiled eggs, fruits, nuts, Greek yogurt, salads and palm-sized pieces of fish, chicken or low-fat beef. He also exercises regularly, alternating between intense cardio workouts and weight-resistance training... |
Seems to me you can lose the hormone part of this regime, and still get the same positive results. And unless there are peer reviewed studies done that say otherwise, there is nothing in the above quote that would change my mind on that. Anecdotal evidence is not very impressive. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2012 : 17:00:14 [Permalink]
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 Excellent!
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2012 : 17:33:36 [Permalink]
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The hormone therapy just accelerates (and exaggerates) the results you get from following a good fitness program.
Cenegenics also charges a shitload of cash for their services (thousands a month) and that does not include the cost of the Hgh and testosterone.
Basically what they are selling is a "secret" that bodybuilders, athletes, pro wrestlers, and the rest of the universe has known for a very long time... riods make it easy to get into awesome looking physical shape. The downside is twofold, you have to take ever increasing doses to keep getting results and you lose it all when you stop juicing up.
Basically you pay these guys $2k and their doctor writes you a script for steroids and growth hormone. My advice is to cook your own at home and save the money!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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IntegreaterOne
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2012 : 10:50:15 [Permalink]
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I apologize for any confusion I may have created in punching buttons on this message page and appearing to ask a question about hormones, which I did not. I'm a newcomer to SFN and was attracted to your interest in asking critical questions, but came across this piece on Cenegenics and wanted you to hear my story.
I stated my case about the success I experienced with Cenegenics because I agree wholeheartedly that they are presenting their case in a cheesy way. Furthermore, the majority of my costs are picked up by my insurance, for which I am grateful. I have a pharmacy degree and my own company is in biopharma and nutritional research so I come to the table reasonably intelligent on the subject. This intelligence is not meant in any way to supplant other people's knowledge or experience in this forum.
I am deeply skeptical about western medicine, but I build innovations (i.e. drugs and biologics) for it and also for natural alternatives to care. (nutritional products) I call myself an integreater because I believe our greatest imperative for sustainability on this planet is not a question of "either or", but "either and". By this I mean that the greatest value of critical thinking is to ask the hard questions, then seek the synthesis of the best answers we get to move forward to hard won solutions.
I argue as much with medical doctors as I do with naturopaths. I don't intend for either of them to keep me from health or to kill me. As to the point about how diet and exercise can "do it all", wait till you're sixty. Anti-aging is about holding your body at ~40. I don't want to look like Dr. L. I want to be the 60 that's the new 40. This is the happiest and most creative, wisest productive time of my life. I look around me at fat, aging, hurting, demoralized 60 years who look godawful and say - I don't want that path!
To the question of how this is just like what a doctor does - it is nowhere near. Been there, done that. Maybe 20% of what your traditional medicine is doing.
Anyway, my intent was to give another side of the story and to disclaim that it's all a scam or that it's only about money. I did not come to it from the website because if I had I would have run with my tail between my legs. Fortunately, I met someone with great results.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2012 : 16:42:35 [Permalink]
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First, there is no such thing as eastern/western medicine. There is only evidence based medicine.
Second, there is no evidence that hormone use makes you biologically younger. After 50 you lose skeletal muscle every year, anabolic steriods and growth hormones can slow/prevent this and let you mimic the skeletal muscle mass of a younger person.... but if you are 60 your cells are still 60, not 40.
When you see fat/old looking 60 year olds.... you are also probably looking at sedentary people who do not follow a fitness and nutrition plan.
Cenegenics is a scam simply because you do not need them to get the same results. Just chat up the biggest guy at your local gym, make a friend, and you can get linked into his supplier for a lot less than what Cenegenics charges. Or put your knowledge of organic chemistry to use and make your own from other readily available and legal products.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2012 : 17:02:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
First, there is no such thing as eastern/western medicine. There is only evidence based medicine. |
| Second, there is no evidence that hormone use makes you biologically younger. |
And if it did, would it be limited to webpages and classifieds? I mean, REALLY! "Big Pharma"--[Boo. Hiss.--Ed.]--would package this universally. Who would NOT follow it if they could afford it.
I was also going to rant about the "Eastern/Western" fallacy--as if the Laws of Physics [PBUT--Ed.] cease working when you pass Mecca . . . or mayhaps they do?--but I have ranted enough recently . . . and writing of sitting on butt and not exercising 
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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IntegreaterOne
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2012 : 07:46:15 [Permalink]
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I love 30 year experts on 60 year bodies. Go work out and eat better. Ha, ha. See you in thirty, baby.
Whatever semantics you want to use - traditional versus alternative, east versus west - evidence based is a great throw around term. And YES, YES I agree it is indeed the Mecca of health care. BUT like the Bible, Koran or all the other books of "faith" bashed on the other pages of this site for its misguided use by the countless morons, it all depends on the reader and the writer to give it meaning too.
Your evidence is your observation, your research and your experience. Mine is my experience and a whole lot of reading and research to work with what I've got. My stakes are a lot higher because I'm living it closer to the edge.
Is it really necessary to invalidate the experience of another in order to make a point? I already said I thought the site was cheesy and that my doc was entirely different than Dr L. But in an obsession to make Point A (i.e. I know I'm right about this hormone thing) what do you actually know about this program? Truth is it is very complex and multi-factoral AS I AM EXPERIENCING IT. Probably about as close to personalized medicine that you are going to get. For example, my cardiovascular profile alone is reading about 15 factors now. My family doc was looking at high and low cholesterol and triglycerides only. Science is way more complicated in cardiovascular than that.
Skepticism gets tedious when a bright questioning party gives no breathing room to someone who possesses the same. Like I said, I'm new to this site. Are you here to simply invalidate everyone's viewpoint because you are stuck on your own?
Originally posted by Dude
First, there is no such thing as eastern/western medicine. There is only evidence based medicine.
Second, there is no evidence that hormone use makes you biologically younger. After 50 you lose skeletal muscle every year, anabolic steriods and growth hormones can slow/prevent this and let you mimic the skeletal muscle mass of a younger person.... but if you are 60 your cells are still 60, not 40.
When you see fat/old looking 60 year olds.... you are also probably looking at sedentary people who do not follow a fitness and nutrition plan.
Cenegenics is a scam simply because you do not need them to get the same results. Just chat up the biggest guy at your local gym, make a friend, and you can get linked into his supplier for a lot less than what Cenegenics charges. Or put your knowledge of organic chemistry to use and make your own from other readily available and legal products.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2012 : 08:48:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by IntegreaterOne
Your evidence is your observation, your research and your experience. Mine is my experience and a whole lot of reading and research to work with what I've got. My stakes are a lot higher because I'm living it closer to the edge. |
And you should realize that the fact that the stakes are higher for you will make you more likely to engage in confirmation bias and post hoc ergo propter hoc thinking simply because you have a more-pressing need for your ideas to be correct. Skepticism attempts to minimize such biases in a search for the truth, which is vital because reality doesn't give a damn about how important an idea is to you. It doesn't matter how high the stakes are for you, if your ideas are wrong, then they are wrong.| Is it really necessary to invalidate the experience of another in order to make a point? |
Dude said nothing to "invalidate [your] experience," he merely said that the same results could be attained with less expense and without the scam. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2012 : 09:48:46 [Permalink]
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IntegreaterOne:
I love 30 year experts on 60 year bodies. Go work out and eat better. Ha, ha. See you in thirty, baby. |
I’m 63.
IntegreaterOne:
Whatever semantics you want to use - traditional versus alternative, east versus west - evidence based is a great throw around term. And YES, YES I agree it is indeed the Mecca of health care. BUT like the Bible, Koran or all the other books of "faith" bashed on the other pages of this site for its misguided use by the countless morons, it all depends on the reader and the writer to give it meaning too. |
And studies. Unfortunately, the studies done do not support the idea that increased testosterone, beyond what your body actually requires, is of any benefit. They do those studies with control groups that receive placebos. If the placebo group and the people getting the hormone treatment wind up with similar results, what conclusion should be drawn from that?
IntegreaterOne:
Your evidence is your observation, your research and your experience. Mine is my experience and a whole lot of reading and research to work with what I've got. My stakes are a lot higher because I'm living it closer to the edge. |
While this story doesn’t directly address what you have said, because we were talking about alternatives in general, a doctor friend of mine, many years ago, told me this. He said that about 80% of the people who come to see him with some health complaint will recover with no medical intervention at all. Another 10% need mild intervention and the remaining 10% need more intensive intervention. Now what of that 80%? Let’s say they go to the pharmacy and pick up a homeopathic treatment for what ails them? They get better. But they would have gotten better anyway. And to what will they attribute their recovery? So now they are telling their friends that they must try such and such homeopathic because it worked for them. They have the personal experience of taking something and getting better. The correlation is clear, but their conclusion about why they got better is wrong. (There is nothing in a homeopathic and for it to work, physical laws would have to be thrown out.) That’s why personal experience does not carry much weight when looking at cures and methods from a scientific point of view.
IntegreaterOne:
Is it really necessary to invalidate the experience of another in order to make a point? |
No. You can do what you want to do. But you did come to a skeptic’s site and asked us what we think. Diets come and go. Crazy diets come and go. What is left standing every time is that eating right and getting enough exercise will improve your overall health. That includes bringing down cholesterol levels, blood pressure, controlling type 2 diabetes to a point where no more medication is required, and greater strength and much better health as the result. Aside from the short-term benefits of juicing, which is not recommended unless there is a deficiency, again I suggest that if you are following a good diet and exercise program, you can minimize that dirty trick our metabolism plays on us as we age. There are plenty of very healthy 60 year olds who look 10 years or more younger than their age, and did it by following a good diet and exercise program without the help of juicing. My helper is a prime example of that. He’s five years older than I am and is stronger and looks many years younger than he is.
IntegreaterOne:
I already said I thought the site was cheesy and that my doc was entirely different than Dr L. But in an obsession to make Point A (i.e. I know I'm right about this hormone thing) what do you actually know about this program? Truth is it is very complex and multi-factoral AS I AM EXPERIENCING IT. Probably about as close to personalized medicine that you are going to get. For example, my cardiovascular profile alone is reading about 15 factors now. My family doc was looking at high and low cholesterol and triglycerides only. Science is way more complicated in cardiovascular than that. |
Yeah. But have you tried the diet and exercise part of the same program without the hormones? What is your point of comparison? Juicing might speed up the process, but to what end? Have you considered long term effects? My mother is 92. She ate right and exercised all of her adult life. She has been on weight watchers since I was a kid. It became a habit for her to eat that way. If anecdotal evidence is any indicator, and I don’t think it really counts for much, my mother’s way seems to be the correct way. And what she does is what most doctors’ recommend.
IntegreaterOne:
Skepticism gets tedious when a bright questioning party gives no breathing room to someone who possesses the same. Like I said, I'm new to this site. Are you here to simply invalidate everyone's viewpoint because you are stuck on your own? |
Oh. I agree. Skepticism can be very tedious. Your experience is your experience. But SFN is essentially a science site. So if you want to know what we think, our default will usually be what the consensus is among those who are doing the actual research says it is. Of course, all conclusions of are tentative. Better evidence might come along and we will have to revise our thinking.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2012 : 18:21:02 [Permalink]
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What do you call medicine that has NOT been proven to work OR have been proven not to work?
Alternative Medicine.
What do they call medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine. I certainly agree that when discussing medicine it is really best not to muck up the conversation with "traditional versus alternative, east versus west". It just insults the intelligence of those who understand the differences and is menal masterbation for those who don't. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2012 : 08:07:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by IntegreaterOne
BUT like the Bible, Koran or all the other books of "faith" bashed on the other pages of this site for its misguided use by the countless morons, it all depends on the reader and the writer to give it meaning too. |
I don't get it. These books represents fictional stories made up in complete disregard to reality as it objectively exists. We're not "bashing" them just because we like something to kick (even though it's satisfying from time to time).
Both the authors of those religious stories who actually believe what they wrote, and the readers who blindly accept the stories, are delusional when they reject reality and evidence for the comforting stories their books give them.
Evidence talks, bullshit walks. Give me evidence any day of the month, because I will remain skeptical of the flights of fancy that the snake-oil salesmen offer.
| Your evidence is your observation, your research and your experience. Mine is my experience and a whole lot of reading and research to work with what I've got. |
You disregard all the scientific research already done. We're not just "observing", we're standing on the backs of giants, and their mountain of research which is verified by many other scientists. That's what peer-reviwed is all about.
Those opinions are worth a lot. Give us a good reason why we should change our minds, and we will change it.
I can understand that there are instances where underlying factors can creat circumstances where a hormone treatment can give the illusion of being an "elixir of life" or "potion of youth". (alas my language skills are betraying me: there's a modern contemporary expression which lies just beyond my reach, which isn't a part of fantacy-literature, which describes this idea of reversing aging).
But as it stands now, your anecdotes does not prove the scientific consensus wrong...| My stakes are a lot higher because I'm living it closer to the edge. |
...regardless of the stakes involved. Pascal's Wager has never been a good argument when trying to convince skeptics.
Edit: I see now that Dave has already addressed this, more eloquently than I ever could.
| Probably about as close to personalized medicine that you are going to get. For example, my cardiovascular profile alone is reading about 15 factors now. My family doc was looking at high and low cholesterol and triglycerides only. Science is way more complicated in cardiovascular than that. |
This sounds like how it should be done. The human body is a very complex machine, the more measurements and variables you can factor in, the greater the chance of getting it right. Provided that the person doing the analysis knows what s/he's doing.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2012 : 09:10:54 [Permalink]
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IntergreaterOne said:
| Skepticism gets tedious when a bright questioning party gives no breathing room to someone who possesses the same. Like I said, I'm new to this site. Are you here to simply invalidate everyone's viewpoint because you are stuck on your own? |
When you jump in and trash evidence based medicine in favor of your personal fantasy, then I guess the answer is yes. Not all viewpoints are equal, or even valid.
Anabolic steroids and growth hormones (from personal experience) can indeed make you look and feel younger. To a point. Cenegenics is a scam because they make claims that can't be backed up by any literature or current real research. By what metric would you measure biological age other than time? Telomere length, perhaps? Well, telomere length can be improved (I'll find the journal paper if you like) by things like decreasing stress and engaging in regular physical activity. Steroids not required.
Again, my primary point is, that you can get the same results (looking and feeling younger) from being active and fit, and if you like by using anabolic steroids. You don't need to get ripped off by Cenegeics scammers to the tune of 10-20k a year.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2012 : 10:32:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
You don't need to get ripped off by Cenegeics scammers to the tune of 10-20k a year. |
Actually, since IntergreaterOne claims to have most of it paid by insurance, he's ripping us all off. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Jeffery Life and Cenegenics
