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 From Javier, the xian concept of "morality"
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2550 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  15:34:13  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can see for yourself how sensible it is. This is the guy that our old friend Javier thinks is an example of clear reasoning, compared to the "twisted and stupid" thinking of people like our Simon:

EDIT: Removed quote; you can find it by reading the second and third paragraph of page 11

So when the bible says to kill witches, the person is being moral, gotcha.



EDIT: Removed quote; you can find it by reading the last sentence of the third paragraph of page 11

Look who's talking. This guy says earlier that god is responsible for every little thing that happens.

EDIT: Removed quote; you can find it by reading the first non-scripture quoting paragraph on page 9

So, the columbine shootings had nothing to do with evolution then, it was god's will. Well, that's a load off of my mind. You daughter got raped? God's will. All for his eventual "glory". Since the rape happened according to god's will, what right do you have to call it "evil", much less call the cops on the bastard who did it? Holy fuck! Oh well, on to the original quote:

EDIT: Removed quote, you can find it by reading the second last paragraph on page 11

Yep, you read that right.

EDIT: Removed quote, you can find it by reading the second last sentence of the second last paragraph on page 11

So what standard do you have to say that the decree is "good" in the first place? Oh right. Because god did it, it's automaticlly good. Even when he "decrees" evil. No contradiction there.

EDIT: Removed quote, you can find it by reading the last sentence of the second last paragraph on page 11

Yep, he even goes on to say it.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Edited by - the_ignored on 12/25/2008 15:34:57

dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  17:19:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Welcome to the wild and wacky psychopathic world of religious think. They simply do not mean the same thing with moral language that any rational person does. What they do mean is bat-shit insane.

Morality for them is warped, inconsistent, and infinitely malleable - a matter of mere convenience.
What they mean by "good" is not what sane people mean.
What they mean by "truth" is not what sane people mean.
what they mean by "meaning" is not what sane people mean.
What they mean by "love" is not what sane people mean.
Their thinking is alien and strange and horrific in the extreme, a bizarre construct attempting to clumsily supervene on ordinary human experience. And apologists try to make excuses for it. Their thinking is the very definition of hate.

I wonder what it is like living your life, having children, interacting with the people around you just killing time until God slaughters everyone. Is the imagined petty revenge for real or imagined wrongs really worth forsaking all of humanity? This is why I cannot celebrate religious holidays. This is just too incredibly malicious and brutally despicable to make excuses for. It is not enough to redefine the symbol; it must be maintained for the horror it is as a warning and replaced with better, and anything at all would be better.

There are no excuses for this kind of virulent hatred of humanity. Monsters like this are the enemy of all humanity.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  17:22:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't look like he wants to admit that God created evil, does he?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  18:20:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never read such a load of twisted, morally repulsive crap in my life. It seems to me that humanity's proper relationship to Cheung's god is that of an abused, codependant spouse who must "stand by her man" and never question the beatings.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 12/25/2008 18:51:31
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Dave W.
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USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  20:09:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mooner, God only beats us when we deserve to be beaten.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2008 :  21:34:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...using the rule of thumb...

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  01:07:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Mooner, God only beats us when we deserve to be beaten.
That would explain the frequency.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1880 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  07:23:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This guy needs help.
God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed not even a single thought in the mind of man.
So free will is just an illusion. But then again he might have something there. Of course he could have also missed something here. Something for all occassions in that collection of books.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  08:00:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My mind hurts after reading that bunch of twisted crap...

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  08:12:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Everything happens through God's will

Evil, therefore, happens because want it to.

Therefore opposing evil is opposing the will of God and hence, is evil unto itself...
Or, because there is no way to know the will of God in any particular situation (obviously the serial killer is obeying God's word... or is it the cop that catches him), it prevent you to make any decision.


Obviously, it is retarded as an argument; clearly, it is useless as an objective moral guideline; simply, it allows Javier to prove to himself that whatever he wants to do is moral and that everybody that disagrees with him must be evil...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  09:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Or, because there is no way to know the will of God in any particular situation (obviously the serial killer is obeying God's word... or is it the cop that catches him), it prevent you to make any decision.
Actually, the entire book of Ecclesiastes says, basically, that because we are incapable of judging whether something is good or bad in God's eyes, we should do whatever makes us happy.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  10:36:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Simon

Or, because there is no way to know the will of God in any particular situation (obviously the serial killer is obeying God's word... or is it the cop that catches him), it prevent you to make any decision.
Actually, the entire book of Ecclesiastes says, basically, that because we are incapable of judging whether something is good or bad in God's eyes, we should do whatever makes us happy.


I was under the impression that a big chunk of the moral was that nothing Man ever did had any real significance so we should focus on God, the only thing that last and, hence, mattered.
As illustrated in the verse:
"The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone.'

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25973 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  10:51:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

I was under the impression that a big chunk of the moral was that nothing Man ever did had any real significance so we should focus on God, the only thing that last and, hence, mattered.
As illustrated in the verse:
"The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for that is the whole duty of everyone.'
There seems to be a good argument that because the last two verses of Ecclesiastes are so different from the rest of the book, that they are a later addition that attempt to disarm the rest of the message therein.

The problem is that the author makes it clear that death is the end, period. No afterlife. No heaven, no hell. Nothing matters in this life because it will simply end. Why, in such a context, would even God matter? What is there to fear from God?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1880 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  11:04:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by perrodetokio

My mind hurts after reading that bunch of twisted crap...
Holy Crap! Having attempted the same leads me to the conclusion that Vincent Cheung is nuts. And my previous comment would have been summarily dismissed by Vincent and Javier. I didn't even have to get beyond the introduction before I encountered this.
Christians must reject the free will defense simply because Scripture rejects free will; rather, Scripture teaches that God is the only one who possesses free will. He says in Isaiah 46:10, "My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." On the other hand, man's will is always enslaved either to sin or to righteousness: "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness" (Romans 6:17-18). Free will does not exist – it is a concept assumed by many professing Christians without biblical warrant.
I don't have free will or the ability to obey.
The Bible teaches that the non-Christian is a sinner, and at the same time teaches that he lacks the ability to obey God. This means that man is morally responsible even if he lacks moral ability; that is, man must obey God even if he cannot obey God. It is sinful for a person to disobey God whether or not he has the ability to do otherwise. Thus moral responsibility is not grounded on moral ability or on free will; rather, moral responsibility is grounded on God's sovereignty – man must obey God's commands because God says that man must obey, and whether or not he has the ability to obey is irrelevant.
and yet it is still my fault.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Tim
SFN Regular

USA
775 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  11:22:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't really want to be the party pooper in the bunch, but do y'all think that this comes as any surprise? These folks have taken Kierkegaard's leap. God is all-powerful. All the contradictions and the paradoxes be damned, blind faith covers it all.

Really now, if someone can believe that donkeys talk, or a man can survive in the belly of a whale, or that the earth is flat and stands upon four pillars, then where's the shocker when it comes to a non-sensible scheme of morality? Moakley's illustration of free will in christianity is a great example.

Anyway, I guess we all realize this. So, carry on and have fun…

But, I certainly wouldn't want to use words as strong as insane. Historically, the vast majority of people have followed belief systems practically as irrational. I'd opt for a more benign word like naïve, gullible or even ignorant. But, that's just me. Maybe I'm a little too tolerant.

"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2008 :  11:46:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Tim

I don't really want to be the party pooper in the bunch, but do y'all think that this comes as any surprise? These folks have taken Kierkegaard's leap. God is all-powerful. All the contradictions and the paradoxes be damned, blind faith covers it all.

Really now, if someone can believe that donkeys talk, or a man can survive in the belly of a whale, or that the earth is flat and stands upon four pillars, then where's the shocker when it comes to a non-sensible scheme of morality? Moakley's illustration of free will in christianity is a great example.

Anyway, I guess we all realize this. So, carry on and have fun…

But, I certainly wouldn't want to use words as strong as insane. Historically, the vast majority of people have followed belief systems practically as irrational. I'd opt for a more benign word like naïve, gullible or even ignorant. But, that's just me. Maybe I'm a little too tolerant.

There are all kinds of definitions of "insane": Legal, psychological, in everyday expression, etc. I would only say that for certain I think Cheung's ideology is insane, as he entirely throws out rational thought. Whether that makes him insane as well is a good issue for debate, but I will observe that insane asylums are full of "religious" people who make just about as much sense as Cheung.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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