|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 01/24/2009 : 09:43:56 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
There is just as much evidence for a soul as there is for a deity: None. |
Originally posted by Zebra
For those whose expectations of "reality" are based in reality... |
Come on, people! OFFC specifically asked the question with the context of "regardless of what is actually true." So, ignore "evidence" and ignore "reality"...
Oh, wait. That just makes it easier to compare "wasting time" with "wasting souls," because we can discount evidence and reality, and just arbitrarily pick whichever one is more important to us.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
 |
|
|
Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 09:51:32 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
An atheist cannot understand true religious zeal because atheism is not a religion. (barring people who have turned away from religion)
|
Oh, call it what you want....I think most anyone can be taken-in/deluded by a placebo effect. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 21:48:24 [Permalink]
|
But a militant atheist could point out at how religion slow science down and hence not only bind people in chain of willing servitude (an ill difficult to quantify) but also slow down the development of new treatment (not only stem-cell research but also all the cures that lil Timmy would have invented if Religion had not turned him away from Science.
He could also mentions how Religion leads abstinence only programs and hence lead to an increase in the rate of unwanted pregnancies and STDs.
He could also mentions how Religions has been used to justify and defend bigotry. Yesterday, it was slavery, today, it is proposition 8.
He could also mentions how Religions is still a major cause of wars and, in he US, terrorism, from 911 to the bombing of abortion clinics.
He could also mentions this article correlating Religiosity with a decrease in quality of life:
| In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. |
For all these reason, a militant atheists could easily say that he is also saving people, with the caveat that he is saving from real dangers... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2009 : 00:59:04 [Permalink]
|
I don't know whether people are intentionally missing my point or just not picking up on it, Dave seemed to but I suspect he was being sarcastic again.
My point was that the motivations of religious people will be stronger because of what they believe to be at stake.
Like I said "regardless of what is actually true." This is not something to be scoffed at. Since the truth sometimes has little effect on people's motivations, which was what I was discussing in the first place. I was at no point discussing the truth of any religious claims.
It can sometimes help to have a little perspective.
Zebra said
For those whose expectations of "reality" are based in reality: time is all we have. "Soul" is a construct with no meaning outside of our earthly, time-limited existence.
For those whose expectations of "reality" are based in a collection of writings from more than 1800 years ago, selected for that collection from a larger body of written works by humans, & filled with errors & inconsistencies: "souls" are all we have. "Time" is a meaningless construct (given their much-hoped-for-but-unproven eternal existence). |
This is exactly what I'm talking about, you fail completely to empathise with the religious and assume your motivations are superior intellectually. Regardless of how many not-so-subtle digs you insert into your argument it doesn't add credence to the idea that a soul is equally valuable to time and truth, since a soul is divine and everlasting (supposedly). Remember my point was that religious motivations are superior in strength, not in truth.
Don't assume I am entering into a theological debate when I am not, my point was more based on human psychology.
If you have no interest in discussing the motivations of religious vs atheist then don't reply to this, it is somewhat off topic anyway.
-------
also: Halfmooner
And some of us remember being religious.
|
I believe I covered this with my qualifying statement
| (barring people who have turned away from religion) |
Dave:
| I remember being religious, but I never had "true religious zeal." |
I didn't say all religious people had this. I used the word 'can'.
|
 |
| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 01/25/2009 01:13:54 |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2009 : 01:49:14 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Remember my point was that religious motivations are superior in strength, not in truth. |
I actually agree with this. When I was a kid in Catholic school, I was taught about men who became saints because they were savagely murdered for refusing to denounce Christ. That is, they were asked and given the chance to lie about their allegiance, but instead refused to deny Christ and chose death.
Supposedly Saint Peter was one of those ordered to be crucified for being a Christian, but because he didn't want to die in the same manner as Jesus, he requested that he be nailed to the cross upside-down. And although I lacked the vocabulary to clearly articulate my feelings on this story at the time, I think I can sum up my reaction now as "fuck that." If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to convert or die, I'm grabbing a tambourine and leading a chorus of Kumbaya. I don't even have to think about it. That religion can convince people to treat this life as a trivial pit stop before eternal happiness is definitely what makes it such a powerful motivator, but also so devastatingly dangerous.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2009 : 09:23:29 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I don't know whether people are intentionally missing my point or just not picking up on it, Dave seemed to but I suspect he was being sarcastic again.
My point was that the motivations of religious people will be stronger because of what they believe to be at stake. |
I see and mostly agree. Atheists tend to be much more passive/indifferent than Religious ones, partly because, as you said, they do not feel the issues has to be as urgent and dramatic.
Also, atheists, in this country, are a minority, a bus add 'there probably is a God' would certainly not offend most atheists into not doing their job.
One could also mentions the difference in personality. After all, for a Christian, even considering that there, indeed, might be no God could bring you to an eternity of suffering. Atheists often are more open minded.
But, still, you can certainly find examples of very militant atheists hell-bent (no pun attended) into putting a term to 'the evil of religion'. |
|
|
|
Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2009 : 17:42:52 [Permalink]
|
I got your point, OffC. Agreed, Christians act more zealous about bringing people to the kind of salvation they believe in.
One can wonder how much of that effort is motivated by the wish to truly save people (as they see it), and how much by the wish to have their uber-evaluator place positive tick marks next to their name on St Peter's list.
One wonders if they ever wonder why their god doesn't seem to exert himself as hard as Christians, in evangelizing in modern times. People couldn't possibly bring all people to belief in god or christ, whereas god would have that ability in an instant (if he/she/it is anything like Christians believe).
Coming back to Mr. Heather, who refused to get on the bus with the agnostic-atheist ad on it: how solid is HIS faith? Did he not trust in his lord to protect him, in his faith to keep him strong? Did he not feel he should board that bus, to witness to the unfortunate souls who might believe the ad & be doomed for all eternity? That's the part I don't get.
And, I'm still wondering about your heavily muscled Christ, breaking the crucifix and (one would then imagine) giving the lie to the whole story of the crucifixion, resurrection, & salvation-by-innocent-blood... |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
|
|
|
Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 01:34:56 [Permalink]
|
It's starting to look like OffC isn't going to address anything in that last post. Ya think?
Edited for clarity |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 01/31/2009 01:36:22 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 01:58:14 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Zebra
It's starting to look like OffC isn't going to address anything in that last post. Ya think?
Edited for clarity
|
Maybe his fire finally consumed him?
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 02:46:00 [Permalink]
|
| OffC's participation on the forum goes up and down over time. Absence like this isn't unusual. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2009 : 23:09:00 [Permalink]
|
One wonders if they ever wonder why their god doesn't seem to exert himself as hard as Christians, in evangelizing in modern times. People couldn't possibly bring all people to belief in god or christ, whereas god would have that ability in an instant (if he/she/it is anything like Christians believe).
|
The way I see it you want someone to love you out of choice and trust, not because overwhelming evidence reveals it to be the only sensible option. Is it not this way between a man and a woman?
My picture shows a physically strong Jesus, this is symbolism, clearly I am not implying He actually escaped from His crucifixion. Also I find images like this help get youngsters interested in Jesus. |
|
| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 02/03/2009 23:17:08 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 07:14:12 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
The way I see it you want someone to love you out of choice and trust... |
Then why does God demand love using the threat of eternal punishment? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 08:38:01 [Permalink]
|
Yeah.
An you mention love between a man and a woman... I have not been dating for a while, but my 'strategies' never involved hiding around in such a way that the could not know for certain that I even existed... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 20:02:15 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Simon
Yeah.
An you mention love between a man and a woman... I have not been dating for a while, but my 'strategies' never involved hiding around in such a way that the could not know for certain that I even existed...
|
Damn, I've been trying that for years.
|
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 00:10:33 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
The way I see it you want someone to love you out of choice and trust, not because overwhelming evidence reveals it to be the only sensible option. Is it not this way between a man and a woman? |
Interesting but flawed analogy, in part because it's actually *not* this way between two people who are attracted to each other. Why else would makeup, Victoria's Secret, & treatments for baldness be such big business?
Also because most of us hope that agape is different from eros.
Is this the way it was between the Holy Spirit and Mary? Oh, no, wait - Mary got the direct "messenger from God" approach: "Guess what, you're the one the holy dating service picked out." Not much subtlety there.
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
My picture shows a physically strong Jesus, this is symbolism, clearly I am not implying He actually escaped from His crucifixion. Also I find images like this help get youngsters interested in Jesus. |
"Clearly [you are] not implying?" Hmm, not so clear. Sure looks that way to me.
If you are using this to get youngsters interested in Christianity, then you are using "bait and switch" tactics, which is lying. (If, on the other hand, you are using it to get them interested in altering images of Jesus, or to get them interested in investigating the crucifixion/resurrection story as symbolism, then your use of this image seems reasonable.)
|
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Christian man refuses to drive atheist bus
