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hholdings
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2009 : 19:14:22
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Just how long can Obama prosecute the Afghan War before the American public turn on him and began to march in the streets? The talk is that Obama will increase the size of the force to about 60,000 troops. When should he began to draw down the force? Or does it depend on the type of successes he's perceived to be having? Or does that really make a difference? Our tolerance for war is very short, especially, if casualties are significant.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 21:54:27 [Permalink]
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I've an impression that both the American public and the world are a lot more tolerant of a war in Afghanistan than we have been of the war in Iraq, provided it is waged both intelligently and as humanely as possible. There, we really are fighting both those who attacked us on 9/11 and the former government that sheltered them.
The greatly added force levels that withdrawals from Iraq will make possible will likely send the Taliban and Al Qaeda reeling and at least force them to keep their heads down and wage a more low-level guerrilla war. The balance should shift very quickly as troops are brought in to garrison towns in Taliban-controlled areas, and to better intercept supply lines. They might even be defeated there.
One possibility is that the Taliban might feel enough pressure to divorce itself from Al Qaeda, and to call a long-term truce. US, NATO, and other allied forces would then able to concentrate upon Al Qaeda.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 03:32:48 [Permalink]
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The problem is, it will take quite a while to set up a stable government in Afghanistan. The country is divided into smaller territories governed by despotic warlords commanding private armies. They won't relinquish power just like that.
During the first invasion, the American Forces relied heavily on those private armies because (I suppose) they didn't want to risk American soldiers' life. As a result, the warlords and not American forces gained control over those territories once the Taliban influence dropped. And the warlords are not interested in democracy.
As I have mentioned so many times before: The Geneva Convention stipulates (paraphrased) that an invader of a country is responsible for keeping law and order in occupied territory. That is what should have been done in the first place, instead of scurrying over to commit war crimes in Iraq. America had a legit claim in Afghanistan, and a good opportunity to create something positive: a budding democracy. But through the lack of ground troops and control, it was lost.
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Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 05:02:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
As I have mentioned so many times before: The Geneva Convention stipulates (paraphrased) that an invader of a country is responsible for keeping law and order in occupied territory. |
Pretty much the Spider-man credo. And I agree.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 06:15:36 [Permalink]
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| I forget. What is the purpose of this war? What is it that makes this a "good war?" |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 06:58:40 [Permalink]
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| Al Qaida was chiefly based in Afghanistan and the regime was supporting it... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 07:04:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Al Qaida was chiefly based in Afghanistan and the regime was supporting it...
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What was the reason for the war? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 09:08:14 [Permalink]
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| The problem is, it will take quite a while to set up a stable government in Afghanistan. The country is divided into smaller territories governed by despotic warlords commanding private armies. They won't relinquish power just like that. |
If the goal is a stable democracy in Afghanistan we're in trouble. But if the goal is to wipe out the Taliban it's doable. They have been gunning down foreigners throwing acid in the faces of girls who had the audacity to go to school, and committing all kinds of "religion of peace" atrocities, so support for eliminating them shouldn't be too hard to maintain, both in the US and among the people of Afghanistan.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 09:32:26 [Permalink]
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Umm, if the Iraq disaster hasn't caused mass protests in the US, then why would anyone think the Afghan clusterfk will?
Also, Simon, there is no point (literally) in trying to have a conversation with Gorgo on this kind of topic. He doesn't want to have a conversation, he just wants to berate anyone who doesn't have his exact opinion on the matter.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 11:31:37 [Permalink]
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As usual, Dude has nothing to add to any discussion except insults. This from a guy who didn't know the U.N. was a treaty, and now that he knows, is still against trying to get the U.S. to conform to international law.
Simon answered with a slogan, not an answer. The question was, what is the reason for the war. Why do we care that the Taliban was "sheltering" al-Qaeda, and what evidence do we have that they were? What does that have to do with who knows how many deaths and injuries and property damage as a result of the war? How is this related at all to making the world a better place? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 11:59:08 [Permalink]
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| Actually, there were mass protests trying to stop the war against the people of Iraq. Not sure what good they did, but they were there. Maybe they stopped a larger slaughter, I don't know. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 20:13:21 [Permalink]
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Well, it was important to go to Afghanistan for three main reasons:
-Retribution: Al Qaida killed thousands of innocent US citizens.
-Prevention: Weaken Al-Qaida, remove its support from the Talibans and reduce its ability to stage another attack.
-Prevention bis: Showing that attacking the US results in harsh consequences, hopefully, making other potential attackers to think twice before attacking.
As for, how did we know Al-Qaida was present in Afghanistan:
1- It was official and admitted by the Taliban government.
2- The US did put the Taliban into power... using Al-Qaida. They knew Al-Qaida was there, because Reagan put it there. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 20:33:45 [Permalink]
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The question wasn't whether al-Quaeda was present, it was whether it was "sheltered," and why would we care. What evidence was there at the time that anyone in Afghanistan had anything to do with the 9/11 bombing, and what evidence was there that attacking the people of Afghanistan would do less harm than good?
Carter and Reagan (and Clinton) did help al-Qaeda, although I don't think it was called that then. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 04:19:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by hholdings
Just how long can Obama prosecute the Afghan War before the American public turn on him and began to march in the streets? The talk is that Obama will increase the size of the force to about 60,000 troops. When should he began to draw down the force? Or does it depend on the type of successes he's perceived to be having? Or does that really make a difference? Our tolerance for war is very short, especially, if casualties are significant.
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Anyway, rightly or wrongly, this is still a holy war to most Americans, so I think it might take a while yet for people to get tired of it.
I think the Vietnam war and now even the Iraq war are (somehow)seen as "their war," so people got tired of them, but this is still the war between Good and Evil as far as I can tell. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 05:30:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
The question wasn't whether al-Quaeda was present, it was whether it was "sheltered," and why would we care. What evidence was there at the time that anyone in Afghanistan had anything to do with the 9/11 bombing, and what evidence was there that attacking the people of Afghanistan would do less harm than good?
Carter and Reagan (and Clinton) did help al-Qaeda, although I don't think it was called that then.
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(bolding mine)
The propaganda in the US during the 80´s used to called them FREEDOM FIGHTERS! 
Anyone remembers Rambo III? Weren´t those the chappies?
How cynical! Unless it was meant as in fighting (against) freedom, but I doubt it. |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 06:09:30 [Permalink]
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| Rambo I was enough for me, sorry. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Obama’s Afghan war
