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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:09:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Will the GOP and businessman think differently if they see guillotines being constructed? -
What makes you think that the Democrats won't be in the trumble as well?
The Democrats don't care about the poor either. They only care about being re-elected. |
Democrats (or Republicans, though that's almost completely hypothetical in their case) who work to prevent a further slide into a depression are helping their own re-election chances. And that's how the system is supposed to work.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Hittman
Skeptic Friend
134 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:13:33 [Permalink]
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That's the kind of brilliant debating I've come to expect from this place.
| Since when have these businesses created jobs? |
Since, oh, the beginning of time. Business, especially new business and small and medium size businesses create jobs. When was the last time you got a job from a poor person?
| And to at least realize that in an emergency, strong government spending programs are exactly what are needed both to stimulate the economy, |
Because it worked so well in Japan for the past ten years (aka The Lost Decade)? Or the Great Depression?
We need big money spent on infrastructure repairs, but that should be considered a repair bill, not a stimulus program. Otherwise, spending our way to prosperity will work as well for government as it does for individuals.
| The Democrats don't care about the poor either. They only care about being re-elected. |
They care enough to help keep them poor, so they will keep getting reelected.
There's no profit in keeping people poor. Poor people can't buy your stuff. It's in the interest of most business people to see people lifted out of poverty so they can.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, and get him to vote for you. Teach a man to fish and you can sell him bait and lures and fishing rods and boats and tackle boxes and fish finders and beer and sandwiches.
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When a vampire Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door, don't invite him in. Blood Witness: http://bloodwitness.com
Get Smartenized® with the Quick Hitts blog: http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/index.phpBlog |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:33:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, and get him to vote for you. Teach a man to fish and you can sell him bait and lures and fishing rods and boats and tackle boxes and fish finders and beer and sandwiches. |
And if you see a man down on his luck who had a bad day fishing, fuck him. Let him starve. That's more fish for you. Because you're luck will never turn.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:37:48 [Permalink]
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| Democrats (or Republicans, though that's almost completely hypothetical in their case) who work to prevent a further slide into a depression are helping their own re-election chances. And that's how the system is supposed to work. |
Yeah yeah yeah. So the Republicans who prevent terrorist bogeymen from attacking us are helping their chances to get relected.... yawn..
These demagogues keep themselves in power by the millions of dollars they get from their friends. That goes to their spin machines. The last election over $1 billion dollars were spent in campaigning. So Half the way IT works is No money - No Voice.
Half - you trust dems and distrust reps. I don't trust either. They are Coke and Pepsi. Their track record sucks on helping the poor,and the disenfranchised. Both are using the same tactics to keep themselves in power. They are doing at your expense and my expense and our great grand children.
Do you think for a moment any one of these Parasites would enact legislation that would significantly impact their financial well being?
The system has been in a persistant vegetative state for 40 years and needs to die. Robert Reich pointed out that these issue have been festering since the 70's. Both sides DID NOTHING! Cost of living has gone up but wages have not increased.
The capitalistic consumeristic system is unsustainable.
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"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
| Edited by - WarfRat on 02/24/2009 17:55:19 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:44:04 [Permalink]
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There's no profit in keeping people poor. Poor people can't buy your stuff. It's in the interest of most business people to see people lifted out of poverty so they can.
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I agree, but why do wealthy people work so hard to make sure there are so many poor people? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 17:47:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
| And to at least realize that in an emergency, strong government spending programs are exactly what are needed both to stimulate the economy, |
Because it worked so well in Japan for the past ten years (aka The Lost Decade)? Or the Great Depression?
We need big money spent on infrastructure repairs, but that should be considered a repair bill, not a stimulus program. Otherwise, spending our way to prosperity will work as well for government as it does for individuals.
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In this economist opinion putting Japan's Lost Decade in perspective.
With private borrowing and spending frozen, the Japanese government stepped in, spending on highways, bridges and other infrastructure, and running up big deficits. Where the Japanese government erred, Koo says, was in worrying about those deficits. It cut back prematurely on the stimulus. The economy faltered, and the government had to resume spending.
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For more see Balance sheet recesion
edited to add: Bottom line while the private sector pulled back trying to get their balance sheets in order the government became the spender of last resort. Once the private sector recovered it then became time for the government to get its balance sheet back in order. Only problem here is that our elected leaders, in good times and bad, just keep spending. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 02/24/2009 17:53:28 |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 18:01:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I agree, but why do wealthy people work so hard to make sure there are so many poor people?
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It's more profitable. Then the wealthy will create the jobs for the poor at a wage of their choosing. -- market correction. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 18:35:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Originally posted by Gorgo
I agree, but why do wealthy people work so hard to make sure there are so many poor people?
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It's more profitable. Then the wealthy will create the jobs for the poor at a wage of their choosing. -- market correction.
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Well, I don't think it's more profitable, but I do agree that the wealthy, and therefore Democrats and Republicans, except for a few, think so, and do what they can to create as many slaves as possible. Obama seems to be no different, but we'll see. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 20:49:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hittman
That's the kind of brilliant debating I've come to expect from this place.
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I actually did ask you a question which you chose to ignore.
What you quoted was not an attempt on my part to debate any issue with you. It was simply my response to your absurd armchair analysis of what the left is about. I was rushed at the time or I would have used more words. Perhaps I would have even been more eloquent in my resonse to your comment, but I would have essentially said the same thing.
Maybe you think that your insulting psychobabble was of a higher caliber than my response to it and worthy of debate. I don't think so. Sorry, all I saw in what you wrote were the rantings of a raging bigot.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 23:19:44 [Permalink]
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Seems we ideologically-fueled arguments from both libertarian Right and and cynical Left. Both ends of the spectrum have one thing in common: No program. I count neither "let business fix it" nor "nether party is going to do anything" as a program.
We have a looming Depression here, folks. This is serious, and this is real. It's going to take a huge stimulus program, and a good deal of luck, just to keep from hitting bottom as hard as we did in the 1930's. It's going to require what did the job before: New Deal style programs.
It's time to put ideology behind us and look for whatever works.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/24/2009 23:20:45 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 01:41:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Seems we ideologically-fueled arguments from both libertarian Right and and cynical Left. Both ends of the spectrum have one thing in common: No program. I count neither "let business fix it" nor "nether party is going to do anything" as a program. |
I see, and you see extreme right wing arguments from the Democrats as a sensible program. Good. You see being on the side of the poor as "cynical." That's okay. I hope all that works, I really do.
I am optimistic about Obama. So far he's waited long past the date someone should have done something, and he's voted for Bush's idea of handing money to the wealthy by the trainload as fast as can possibly done which did nothing. but I'm optimistic, not cynical at all.
I'm hoping the stimulus plan is different. I really am. It's pretty watered down, but there is still time. All of his advisers either are the people who helped cause the problem, or they learned from the people who caused the problem. But I really am optimistic. He may really be farther left than he appears. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2009 02:11:56 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 02:42:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I see, and you see extreme right wing arguments from the Democrats as a sensible program. Good. You see being on the side of the poor as "cynical." That's okay. I hope all that works, I really do. |
Thanks for putting those words in my mouth. You can argue with that strawman all you like, but leave me out.
I'm not just on the side of the poor, I actually am poor. Siding with the poor certainly isn't cynical, but I think giving up on both major political parties is cynical, especially in a time when one of them is just beginning to feel its populist oats.| I am optimistic about Obama. So far he's waited long past the date someone should have done something, and he's voted for Bush's idea of handing money to the wealthy by the trainload as fast as can possibly done which did nothing. but I'm optimistic, not cynical at all. |
It's like we're looking at two different epochs in history. As I see it, and as most commentators also do, Obama has been off to a stupendously fast running start.I'm hoping the stimulus plan is different. I really am. It's pretty watered down, but there is still time. All of his advisers either are the people who helped cause the problem, or they learned from the people who caused the problem. But I really am optimistic. He may really be farther left than he appears.
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Good. I'm hoping so, too. You might say one of our differences is that I'm probably more optimistic.
Let's hold Barack Obama's feet to the fire. It's going to take real grass-roots work to make the changes we need. It can't be done from the top, as he seems quite aware.
When a very leftist group had a conference with Franklin Roosevelt in the early years of the Depression, they made some radical proposals for recovery from the Depression. FDR told them, "I agree with you. Now make me do it."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/25/2009 02:44:17 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 04:12:12 [Permalink]
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Sorry if I put words in your mouth, I thought you were saying that Democrats and Republicans have not been the enemies of the poor.
Let me quote your exact words. You want to keep Obama's "feet to the fire," but then you seem to be saying it's important that the corporate media says that Obama is "off to a stupendously fast running start". Yes, he started before inauguration day by handing billions to the already wealthy. He started after inauguration day by watering down his plan to get three Republicans behind it.
I actually am more optimistic than you are, I think. I don't think there will be death squads roaming the streets in the next year. In fact, I think there's a chance that things might get a little better for middle class whites and, well, of course, the already wealthy. He's made no promises about the millions of black men in prison, on parole or probation, for instance. He's made no promises about repairing any of the damage the U.S., France and Canada has done in Haiti, for instance.
Seriously, we will see what the next year or two brings. Hopefully, we will see a little of the change that so many people think they were voting for. His cabinet tells me that there will be none, but Obama is a bright, introspective, hard-working guy. Maybe he will, maybe we will make a difference. We'll all keep trying. We'd do best to be realistic about it though. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/25/2009 04:38:42 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 07:18:00 [Permalink]
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I'm not just on the side of the poor, I actually am poor.
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People very often vote against their best interests. Many people voted for Reagan and Clinton, and they voted for Obama and McCain. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2009 : 10:53:28 [Permalink]
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Fat Rich people sitting on their fortune does not do much for the economy. When they hoard up their riches, there are less for us mortals to circulate.
What we need is a Robin Hood who steals from the Rich and put that wealth into circulation at grassroot-level.
There's much work to do, too much for one man to do. Why not have the Government do it for us. They can discriminate the Rich equally.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Why do Republicans hate the poor?
