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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:30:32
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New 'justice' memos, have been declassified, just to illustrate, how far the previous administration has been.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 14:30:42 [Permalink]
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It's going to be very interesting in the coming months and years to find out more about what was going on behind the scenes in the Bush White House. I don't think the USA has often come as close to dictatorship as it did during the Bush years. It will be interesting to find out about any contingency plans or discussions about imposing complete martial law, for instance.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 03:08:42 [Permalink]
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More info, with links to some of the documents.
I don't comprehend why the people who wrote these policies and implemented them can't be charged with crimes. It is a violation of law to take actions that are directly prohibited by the US Constitution, isn't it?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 03:24:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
More info, with links to some of the documents.
I don't comprehend why the people who wrote these policies and implemented them can't be charged with crimes. It is a violation of law to take actions that are directly prohibited by the US Constitution, isn't it? |
Yup, I think so. I sure want these criminals behind bars.
Even if the Justice Department is leaning toward prosecution, it would be some time before a case could be put together and announced. After all, they would have to start from scratch, since the Bush guys probably didn't begin preparing a case against themselves. Still, it would be nice if the Administration announced that serious investigations were underway.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 07:31:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I don't comprehend why the people who wrote these policies and implemented them can't be charged with crimes. |
Because giving bad legal advice isn't a crime, and I'm not sure that you could successfully argue that these authors are advising their client (POTUS) to commit crimes. At worst, the authors of these memos will be disbarred, but I doubt even that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 09:41:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
I don't comprehend why the people who wrote these policies and implemented them can't be charged with crimes. |
Because giving bad legal advice isn't a crime, and I'm not sure that you could successfully argue that these authors are advising their client (POTUS) to commit crimes. At worst, the authors of these memos will be disbarred, but I doubt even that.
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Well sure, a person could see it that way, if you want to bring in all that finicky "rights of the accused," "legal confidentiality," and "due process" rigamarole.
Why can't the ACLU look the other way we we need them to?
Or we could just lynch 'em all and let their omniscient, omnipotent Creator sort 'em out. I never heard that Lynch Law had the rights of the accused written into it.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 12:18:42 [Permalink]
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Dave, these policies were implemented. Actions taken that violated laws, crimes committed, based on these memos. At a mimimum isn't that worth a conspiracy charge? And the actual people who implemented the policies, the heads of various government agencies under Bush (and their subordinates), can't they be charged with crimes for violating the constitution?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 20:43:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Dave, these policies were implemented. Actions taken that violated laws, crimes committed, based on these memos. At a mimimum isn't that worth a conspiracy charge? |
I imagine this:Yer Honor, we were given a "what if" scenario, and so while waiting for the strippers to show up at the hotel one night, after a lot of Captain Morgan, we threw together a ridiculous hypothetical. We never once expected anyone to implement that garbage. | And the actual people who implemented the policies, the heads of various government agencies under Bush (and their subordinates), can't they be charged with crimes for violating the constitution? |
Oh, sure! I was just talking about the authors. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 21:13:02 [Permalink]
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Ultimately, it boils down like that: Bush asked them what they think the laws allowed in these circumstances, and they gave their opinions.
The supreme courts disagree with them. They were probably wrong. But being wrong is not a crime, as long as you do not directly participate.
I can think that refusing to fill up my tax forms will exempt me from paying my taxes.
I'd be wrong, of course, but as long as I still keep paying my taxes, I committed no crimes, while the sucker that believed me and followed my advice did... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 03/05/2009 21:17:42 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 23:48:46 [Permalink]
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Well, to use a somewhat ridiculous example, what if a lawyer were asked it it was legal for you to rob a bank, and he said yes. If you were arrested for the robbery, wouldn't your lawyer be likely to face a criminal conspiracy charge? Or some penalty more severe than being kicked out of the BAR?
These things are not some grey area of constitutional law. The bill of rights doesn't have a clause thay says it only applies in certain situations.
It seems more serious to me than a mere case of bad legal advice.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 08:16:07 [Permalink]
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| I am pretty sure that the lawyer would not face retribution beside his colleagues looking at him the next morning and asking 'What the fuck were you thinking dude?'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 10:30:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I am pretty sure that the lawyer would not face retribution beside his colleagues looking at him the next morning and asking 'What the fuck were you thinking dude?'.
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Or, "Damn that was clever! Wish I'd thought of it."
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 09:38:57 [Permalink]
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As people as commented, Bush was not his client. And even then, he served him poorly by giving him what are universally considered mistaken advices.
But, he, one can argue that advices were not what he was going for, rather than excuses and justifications for Bush to cover his ass with and divert the blame as he always do... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 03/09/2009 09:40:15 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 10:58:42 [Permalink]
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My point exactly!
Which is why his actions are criminal rather than just a matter of legal incompetence.
He was part of a conspiracy to circumvent the law. He created justifications for actions he knew were illegal at the request of his boss, who he knew intended to break the law.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 11:55:38 [Permalink]
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If every lawyer who dreamt up a justification for why an illegal act were legal were charged as a criminal, we'd be out of lawyers already.
If Joe Schmoe gets charged with murder, and his lawyer tries to argue that it was self-defense (when it wasn't), does that make "a conspiracy to circumvent the law?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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More revelation about Bush' 'justice' memos
