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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2009 : 07:50:23
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Bush and Cheney should be tried for it and when found guilty, taken out behind the courthouse and shot. I would happily volunteer for the firing squad. Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh dropped a bombshell on Tuesday when he told an audience at the University of Minnesota that the military was running an "executive assassination ring" throughout the Bush years which reported directly to former Vice President Dick Cheney.
The remark came out seemingly inadvertently when Hersh was asked by the moderator of a public discussion of "America's Constitutional Crisis" whether abuses of executive power, like those which occurred under Richard Nixon, continue to this day.
Hersh replied, "After 9/11, I haven't written about this yet, but the Central Intelligence Agency was very deeply involved in domestic activities against people they thought to be enemies of the state. Without any legal authority for it. They haven't been called on it yet."
Hersh then went on to describe a second area of extra-legal operations: the Joint Special Operations Command. "It is a special wing of our special operations community that is set up independently," he explained. "They do not report to anybody, except in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. ... Congress has no oversight of it."
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It's worse than even I had thought and I'm still having trouble digesting it. However, Seymor Hersh is one of the few remaining journalists that are trustworthy, so until some info comes along that refutes this, I must go with Hersh.
Having experienced 8 years of the Bush maladministration, I shouldn't be all that suprised.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 09:44:41 [Permalink]
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It's CURE.
It's Remo Williams! |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 14:09:45 [Permalink]
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I would like to know more about the Cheney's "assassination ring." Were they designating targets and directing the killings of enemy combatant leaders, or of political leaders they simply didn't like?
Killing Osama with a missile from a Predator could be considered either a "normal" act of war, or an assassination, depending upon how one looks at it, and whose ox is gored. Is it always an assassination when a particular individual is targeted? Is it illegal under US anti-assassination laws/rules to kill a commander via a sniper, but legal if he's bombed?
Personally, I'd use the word "assassination" for the killing of a political leader who is not at war with those doing the killing. Like the CIA's clownish attempts to kill Castro. Killing Osama, whether with a Predator, a sniper bullet, or an exploding cigar, would be a "legitimate" act of war in my book.
I deeply loathe Cheney, but I'd like to know more before getting very excited either way.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/12/2009 14:12:10 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2009 : 16:31:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I would like to know more about the Cheney's "assassination ring." Were they designating targets and directing the killings of enemy combatant leaders, or of political leaders they simply didn't like?
Killing Osama with a missile from a Predator could be considered either a "normal" act of war, or an assassination, depending upon how one looks at it, and whose ox is gored. Is it always an assassination when a particular individual is targeted? Is it illegal under US anti-assassination laws/rules to kill a commander via a sniper, but legal if he's bombed?
Personally, I'd use the word "assassination" for the killing of a political leader who is not at war with those doing the killing. Like the CIA's clownish attempts to kill Castro. Killing Osama, whether with a Predator, a sniper bullet, or an exploding cigar, would be a "legitimate" act of war in my book.
I deeply loathe Cheney, but I'd like to know more before getting very excited either way.
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Agree, but what pisses me off the most about the whole thing is the utter lack of accountability. It puts the swine Cheney in a position of too much power. This sort of thing has been SOP throughout the entirity of their tenure.
I too, an waiting on further details, but it is an ugly reflection on the Bush/Cheney puddle of scum that the question has even come up.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 17:17:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I would like to know more about the Cheney's "assassination ring." Were they designating targets and directing the killings of enemy combatant leaders, or of political leaders they simply didn't like?
Killing Osama with a missile from a Predator could be considered either a "normal" act of war, or an assassination, depending upon how one looks at it, and whose ox is gored. Is it always an assassination when a particular individual is targeted? Is it illegal under US anti-assassination laws/rules to kill a commander via a sniper, but legal if he's bombed?
Personally, I'd use the word "assassination" for the killing of a political leader who is not at war with those doing the killing. Like the CIA's clownish attempts to kill Castro. Killing Osama, whether with a Predator, a sniper bullet, or an exploding cigar, would be a "legitimate" act of war in my book.
I deeply loathe Cheney, but I'd like to know more before getting very excited either way. |
Mooner, Hersh said "the Central Intelligence Agency was very deeply involved in domestic activities against people they thought to be enemies of the state." (emphasis mine) Unless Osama is living in the USA, I don't think he meant him. But the statements are vague enough that it's unclear exactly what Hersh meant. I'm not sure whether that comment was meant to connect to the comment about the assignation ring. I agree we must wait until we learn more.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/12/2009 17:19:16 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 18:42:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Mooner, Hersh said "the Central Intelligence Agency was very deeply involved in domestic activities against people they thought to be enemies of the state." (emphasis mine) Unless Osama is living in the USA, I don't think he meant him. But the statements are vague enough that it's unclear exactly what Hersh meant. I'm not sure whether that comment was meant to connect to the comment about the assignation ring. I agree we must wait until we learn more. |
Yeah, I got that, but assumed that the brief mention of domestic CIA activities was a separate thing from the "assassination circle," which I assumed to be an international thing. But yeah, there's more ways to read that article than there are ways to read tea leaves, so who's to say what it means?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 07:36:26 [Permalink]
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And, anyway, isn't the US territory outside of the CIA's jurisdiction?
Isn't the agency supposed to pass its information down to the FBI in the cases involving the territorial US? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 16:08:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
And, anyway, isn't the US territory outside of the CIA's jurisdiction?
Isn't the agency supposed to pass its information down to the FBI in the cases involving the territorial US? |
Yes, definitely.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Grayven
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 17:19:57 [Permalink]
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| Read "Legacy of Ashes" |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 21:15:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
However, Seymor Hersh is one of the few remaining journalists that are trustworthy...
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I'm curious as to why you think Hersh is particularly trustworthy? Even the most casual research reveals serious issues about his credibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Criticisms |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2009 : 03:22:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
However, Seymor Hersh is one of the few remaining journalists that are trustworthy...
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I'm curious as to why you think Hersh is particularly trustworthy? Even the most casual research reveals serious issues about his credibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Criticisms
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| Hersh has written a series of articles for The New Yorker magazine detailing military and security matters surrounding the US-led invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq. In a 2004 article, he alleged that Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld circumvented the normal intelligence analysis function of the CIA in their quest to make the case for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Another article, Lunch with the Chairman, led Richard Perle, a subject of the article, to call Hersh the "closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist." [9] |
High praise indeed, considering the source.
That was an interesting article; thanks! I didn't know that he'd won quite so many awards. I dislike the "anonymous sources" crap as much as anyone, but that's one of the common evils within the journalism trade. Yet he remains a potential embarrassment to any administration including the current one, and that's as it should be. Having dealt with them, I don't trust any journalist entirely, but overall, Hersh has an excellent track record. He also has a habit of "baiting the waters," so to speak, in his speeches, as he has done here for his upcoming article on the swine Cheney's hit team -- thus far, still "alleged." I don't approve of that either, but I'm looking forward to reading it so obviously, it works.
Whadda ya looking for Mycroft; a saint? If so, you are condemned to perpetual disappointment 'cause there ain't no such animal; never has been, never will be.
But again, thanks for the read. I learned a bit about Hersh in it, albeit nothing to modify my opinion. Despite his faults, all too common among journalists, he's still head & shoulders above most of the rest of them.
After-thought: When he finally writes this story, he'd better have his shit together. This one is not your everyday kitten-up-a-tree page-filler and the repercussions for inaccuracy, not to come right out and say; "lying," would be severe.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2009 : 14:17:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
That was an interesting article; thanks! I didn't know that he'd won quite so many awards. I dislike the "anonymous sources" crap as much as anyone, but that's one of the common evils within the journalism trade. Yet he remains a potential embarrassment to any administration including the current one, and that's as it should be. Having dealt with them, I don't trust any journalist entirely, but overall, Hersh has an excellent track record. He also has a habit of "baiting the waters," so to speak, in his speeches, as he has done here for his upcoming article on the swine Cheney's hit team -- thus far, still "alleged." I don't approve of that either, but I'm looking forward to reading it so obviously, it works. |
I agree, it's great marketing.
Originally posted by filthy
Whadda ya looking for Mycroft; a saint? If so, you are condemned to perpetual disappointment 'cause there ain't no such animal; never has been, never will be. |
Years ago I used to believe in the myth of the "objective journalist". Now I feel lucky if I can just identify the obvious biases. In my fantasies newspeople earn respect and success by being objective, but the reality is that it's a business and the stars are teh ones with market share. You're not the only consumer who wants to see his hatred of Cheney confirmed, so Hersh will always have an audience, always get air time, always sell more books, and will be awarded more prizes.
Originally posted by filthy
After-thought: When he finally writes this story, he'd better have his shit together. This one is not your everyday kitten-up-a-tree page-filler and the repercussions for inaccuracy, not to come right out and say; "lying," would be severe. |
If he prints it and it's proven wrong, then Hersh is still a Pulitzer prize winning journalist and best-selling writer. Nobody will ask him to give back the money, nor will they hesitate to publish his next book. Nothing more serious would happen to him than being embarrassed for a few weeks while his mistake is hashed out on the talk shows (while selling more advertising) and then the mistake will be nothing more than a small notation on his Wikipedia page.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2009 : 15:02:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
That was an interesting article; thanks! I didn't know that he'd won quite so many awards. I dislike the "anonymous sources" crap as much as anyone, but that's one of the common evils within the journalism trade. Yet he remains a potential embarrassment to any administration including the current one, and that's as it should be. Having dealt with them, I don't trust any journalist entirely, but overall, Hersh has an excellent track record. He also has a habit of "baiting the waters," so to speak, in his speeches, as he has done here for his upcoming article on the swine Cheney's hit team -- thus far, still "alleged." I don't approve of that either, but I'm looking forward to reading it so obviously, it works. |
I agree, it's great marketing.
Originally posted by filthy
Whadda ya looking for Mycroft; a saint? If so, you are condemned to perpetual disappointment 'cause there ain't no such animal; never has been, never will be. |
Years ago I used to believe in the myth of the "objective journalist". Now I feel lucky if I can just identify the obvious biases. In my fantasies newspeople earn respect and success by being objective, but the reality is that it's a business and the stars are teh ones with market share. You're not the only consumer who wants to see his hatred of Cheney confirmed, so Hersh will always have an audience, always get air time, always sell more books, and will be awarded more prizes.
Originally posted by filthy
After-thought: When he finally writes this story, he'd better have his shit together. This one is not your everyday kitten-up-a-tree page-filler and the repercussions for inaccuracy, not to come right out and say; "lying," would be severe. |
If he prints it and it's proven wrong, then Hersh is still a Pulitzer prize winning journalist and best-selling writer. Nobody will ask him to give back the money, nor will they hesitate to publish his next book. Nothing more serious would happen to him than being embarrassed for a few weeks while his mistake is hashed out on the talk shows (while selling more advertising) and then the mistake will be nothing more than a small notation on his Wikipedia page.
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I think Hersh has a great deal to lose if the charges prove false. As an American citizen and military veteran, I don't need to see a former VP of my country go down for running a federal version of the Mafia's Murder Inc. I've no doubt that there is lots of more ordinary shit he can be busted for, if the Justice Dept grows the onions to pursue it.
Anyhow, here's an update of sorts on it: | Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh's bombshell earlier this week that Vice President Dick Cheney controlled an “executive assassination ring” continues to reverberate throughout Washington, with Nixon aide John Dean going so far as to accuse the former VP of murder if the charges are true. |
I don't trust Dean any farther than I did when he was Nixon's lackey. But again, we shall see.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2009 : 21:48:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I think Hersh has a great deal to lose if the charges prove false. |
The thing about Hersh and these other guys who feed at the trough of partisanship is that their fan base, much like the fan base of psychics, is really good at remembering their hits and then forgiving/forgetting their misses. I really don't see that he has anything to lose.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2009 : 03:54:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by filthy
I think Hersh has a great deal to lose if the charges prove false. |
The thing about Hersh and these other guys who feed at the trough of partisanship is that their fan base, much like the fan base of psychics, is really good at remembering their hits and then forgiving/forgetting their misses. I really don't see that he has anything to lose.
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He'd instantly and irrevocably lose people like me. And you. And, I assume, 'most everyone on these deathly hallowed boards.
Like all of us, reporters and otherwise, he's made mistakes and is guilty of polishing the turd, as it were, now and again. But accusing a former (thank Gawd) Vice President, and by extension, the former (thank Gawd) President, is a lot more ambitious than busting the hump of anyone else. He'd better have his facts straight on this one, damned well told, he'd better.
But we shall see, we shall see.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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MURDER and TREASON!
