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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 08:04:23 [Permalink]
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And for the completely obvious. Especially, considering what has been clearly stated here concerning what embryos actually are, a clump of unaware cells.
Why are these same people who are up in arms over stem cell research using embryos not equally up in arms over the production and disposition of excess embryos at fertility clinics. The excess embryos are destroyed eventually. Or are these same people completely unaware of these fertility clinic practices and content to remain ignorant. For me to take them seriously they will have to become a little more consistent in their outrage. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:54:33 [Permalink]
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| The embryo has no thoughts, no capacity for suffering, no consciousness. It has none of the attributes that distinguishes a human being from other sorts of life... |
Except that this lump of tissue cannot grow in to a rabbit, only a human.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:03:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
So what?
Many of my spermatozoides, many of any woman's ova could become humans if given a chance. |
No they cannot. Not left alone.
| By your reasoning, we should arrest any woman buying tampons, she is comiting murder by not being pregnant this time. |
Thats by your reasoning. An unfertilized egg cannot grow into a human.
Hell, every human cells could become a human being if its nucleus was transplanted into an ovum.
Obviously 'could grow into a human' is meaningless. |
If you did that then you have just created the potential for life. A human cell alone cannot grow into a human life.
But, most with the quote from Jason's Rosenhouse that Dave gave.
Embryos at this age are but an undifferentiated lump of cells.
Looking at it objectively, they have no brain to speak of and are more different from us than we are from a newt (I got better).
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At this point everything is there for these cells to grow into a human. Not before. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:06:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
And for the completely obvious. Especially, considering what has been clearly stated here concerning what embryos actually are, a clump of unaware cells.
Why are these same people who are up in arms over stem cell research using embryos not equally up in arms over the production and disposition of excess embryos at fertility clinics. The excess embryos are destroyed eventually. Or are these same people completely unaware of these fertility clinic practices and content to remain ignorant. For me to take them seriously they will have to become a little more consistent in their outrage.
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Right! That point came up when Bush outlawed federal funding the research outside of existing strains.
For some reason it's acceptable to throw the embryo's out but not okay to use them to advance science.
I can't find the logic here. It's just reason giving way to religious boneheadedness where logic doesn't really exist.
Sorry Rob. But your view on this makes no sense. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:06:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
And for the completely obvious. Especially, considering what has been clearly stated here concerning what embryos actually are, a clump of unaware cells.
Why are these same people who are up in arms over stem cell research using embryos not equally up in arms over the production and disposition of excess embryos at fertility clinics. The excess embryos are destroyed eventually. Or are these same people completely unaware of these fertility clinic practices and content to remain ignorant. For me to take them seriously they will have to become a little more consistent in their outrage.
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There are plenty of organizations out there that are trying to stop this practice. They do not get much press because it is not as controversial. No other humans are being helped by destroying these embryos. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:10:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by moakley
And for the completely obvious. Especially, considering what has been clearly stated here concerning what embryos actually are, a clump of unaware cells.
Why are these same people who are up in arms over stem cell research using embryos not equally up in arms over the production and disposition of excess embryos at fertility clinics. The excess embryos are destroyed eventually. Or are these same people completely unaware of these fertility clinic practices and content to remain ignorant. For me to take them seriously they will have to become a little more consistent in their outrage.
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There are plenty of organizations out there that are trying to stop this practice. They do not get much press because it is not as controversial. No other humans are being helped by destroying these embryos.
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So if other humans were being helped by destroying those embryos, it would be controversial? Say what???? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:26:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
No they cannot. Not left alone. |
Left alone, an embryo will not grow into a human being, either.| At this point everything is there for these cells to grow into a human. Not before. |
Not at all. There'd be no need for a placenta if what you say were true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 11:00:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Simon
So what?
Many of my spermatozoides, many of any woman's ova could become humans if given a chance. |
No they cannot. Not left alone. |
Well; your initial statement was:
| Human feotuses grow into humans if given a chance. |
Which, I argued was non-sensical.
I, apparently, was right as you felt the need to precise your initial statement into:
Human feotuses grow into humans even when left alone if given a chance.
Now, as Dave mentioned, that still is not even correct as the embryos are still essentially parasitic at this stage.
But the point is really quite weak.
Why would potential humans have rights?
Why would the potential humans represented in the embryos be treated differently than the potential humans represented by the germinal cells? By any nucleated cells? Is it because they require less external intervention? By this reasoning, would the healthy newborn be considered more human than the premature baby? He certainly requires much less external intervention.
Embryos have no brains to speak of, no feelings and no sensations. They are not objectively much different from a big tumour.
Why should we sacrifice real actual, present human on the altar of their virtuality? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 13:28:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
At this point everything is there for these cells to grow into a human. |
Not really.
At that point, the embryo is a parasitic organism feeding off its host. Without the nurishment it's stealing, it wouldn't grow, and would never become a human.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 21:38:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Now -- at long last! -- such research can begin in earnest.
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You'd hope.
But they've been doing work on fetal tissue since the 30's. In the late 70's and early 80's there was the push for Federal Funding. To sell it to the public they said it COULD cure Parkinsons and Alzheimers.
Parkinsons and Alzheimers are still there but we now know more about pre-natal issues.
Now it's Stem Cells..bring out the dog and pony show....again.
I am understandably skeptical about it.
This keeps on looking like snake oil to me. They should focus on the human genome project.
Don't get me wrong, there will be some great discoveries made in this research. But don't give me that sales pitch. It like that feed the children ad.
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How about if we bring up what's already been done using (non-embryonic) stem cells? From good ol' Wikipedia: | Adult stem cells and cord blood stems cells have thus far been the only stem cells used to successfully treat any diseases. Diseases treated by these non-embryonic stem cells include a number of blood and immune-system related genetic diseases, cancers, and disorders; juvenile diabetes; Parkinson's; blindness and spinal cord injuries. |
The pathophysiology of Parkinson's suggests that it could be quite responsive to introduction of cells which can replace degenerated brain cells, because the mechanism of Parkinson's = degeneration of cells in the substantia nigra, with subsequent reduction in production of dopamine (thus reducing stimulation of the motor system). Alzheimer's is a disease of deposition, seems less obvious to me that stem cells would provide a cure. Sounds like there's been some work using stem cells to stimulate immune response to prevent (or treat??) amyloid deposition in the brain.
What embryonic stem cells offer, that adult stem cells and cord blood stem cells can't (at this point), is alot more potential to become any cell in the body:
Embryonic stem cells (ES cells) are stem cells derived from the inner cell mass of an early stage embryo known as a blastocyst. Human embryos reach the blastocyst stage 4–5 days post fertilization, at which time they consist of 50–150 cells.
Embryonic Stem (ES) cells are pluripotent. This means they are able to differentiate into all derivatives of the three primary germ layers: ectoderm, endoderm, and mesoderm. These include each of the more than 220 cell types in the adult body. Pluripotency distinguishes ES cells from multipotent progenitor cells found in the adult; these only form a limited number of cell types. When given no stimuli for differentiation, (i.e. when grown in vitro), ES cells maintain pluripotency through multiple cell divisions. The presence of pluripotent adult stem cells remains a subject of scientific debate... |
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I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 05:04:48 [Permalink]
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PZ Myers had a radio debate about stem cells. You can find the download here.
It seems Myers won. A commentator pointed out that one of the callers to the show slammed things down with a thought experiment.
I thought the caller Louis (Lewis?) with his thought experiment really ended the argument.
You have a burning building so which do you rescue, a newborn baby or a suitcase containing a million blastocysts. |
Besides the fact that two week old embryos don't have blood, organs, or nervous systems yet (so there's nothing for them to feel pain with, or think with, etc). it seems that a bunch of those things are getting tossed to the can anyway after miscarriages etc. Why not at least use them to save the lives of people?
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 06:06:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
I thought the caller Louis (Lewis?) with his thought experiment really ended the argument.
You have a burning building so which do you rescue, a newborn baby or a suitcase containing a million blastocysts. |
Myers was great, but that caller won the whole discussion with that thought experiment. Disco Institute IDiot and so-called "pro-lifer" Ray Bohlin practically sputtered in "replying" to that. He refused to address it at all.
Because he'd have grabbed the blastocysts, and left the baby to burn. That would have sounded monstrous on radio, and Bohlin knew it. But that's what the "pro-life" ideology would compel him to do.
Also interesting was Bohlin's admission that his religious belief alone, not his science, was behind his opposition to embryonic stem cell research.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/12/2009 06:10:49 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 15:57:21 [Permalink]
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| Without using potentiality for personhood arguments, how is an infant a person? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 06:42:43 [Permalink]
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An infant obviously thinks, feels, responds to stimuli, and learns.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2009 : 08:06:21 [Permalink]
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Yep; in an infant (or an foetus in the late stages of pregnancy), the brain and neural tissues have developed enough to allow for thinking, learning and feeling.
An embryo can not even feel pain, it is not brain-dead (remember Terry Schiavo?); it is brain-never been alive to begin with. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Obama to restore stem cell funding
