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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  07:35:03  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"I can make a firm pledge," he said in Dover, N.H., on Sept. 12. "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes." - President Obama

He repeatedly vowed "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime."

Now in office, Obama, who stopped smoking but has admitted he slips now and then, signed a law raising the tobacco tax 62 cents on a pack of cigarettes, to $1.01. Other tobacco products saw saw similar or much steeper increases.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4neALCH_2bbNQzJFmY2kAKdTwZwD979VOD00

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  07:59:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a voluntary tax. What you're saying is ridiculous. Nice try but I am calling shenanigans.

@

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!

Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:03:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taxes on such purchases will still (financially) hurt poorer people more than wealthy people. Your idea that it's "voluntary" is beside his point.

It may or may not be a good idea, but it is still a regressive tax.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 04/02/2009 08:05:48
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:08:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder how this will play in the prison populations, where cigarettes are a form of currency.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:17:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

"I can make a firm pledge," he said in Dover, N.H., on Sept. 12. "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes." - President Obama

He repeatedly vowed "you will not see any of your taxes increase one single dime."

Now in office, Obama, who stopped smoking but has admitted he slips now and then, signed a law raising the tobacco tax 62 cents on a pack of cigarettes, to $1.01. Other tobacco products saw saw similar or much steeper increases.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4neALCH_2bbNQzJFmY2kAKdTwZwD979VOD00

Well the argument can be made that a tax on tobacco isn't a tax on people, but on a luxury product. Nobody has to pay that extra tax the way they would if it were an income tax increase, a general sales tax, or even an increase to the gasoline tax.

-Chaloobi

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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:18:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by @tomic

This is a voluntary tax. What you're saying is ridiculous. Nice try but I am calling shenanigans.

@
What does "any form of tax" mean to you? or "not any of your taxes"?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:22:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the argument can be made that a tax on tobacco isn't a tax on people, but on a luxury product. Nobody has to pay that extra tax the way they would if it were an income tax increase, a general sales tax, or even an increase to the gasoline tax.


Income isn't a tax on people, but on income. Seriously, it is a tax which will hit lower income people harder than higher income people, and one that should not be entertained now.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 04/02/2009 08:22:46
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:23:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Taxes on such purchases will still (financially) hurt poorer people more than wealthy people. Your idea that it's "voluntary" is beside his point.

It may or may not be a good idea, but it is still a regressive tax.
An argument can be made that what's actually hurting poorer people financially, in regards to cigarettes, is that this extremely addictive product is freely and copiously available. Furthermore if the higher tax discourages people from smoking, as it is intended, then they will actually be a tremendous financial benefit.

1 pk / day * 5.00/pk * 365 days/yr = $1,825

Hell, that's a hi-def tv right there.

-Chaloobi

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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:27:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Well the argument can be made that a tax on tobacco isn't a tax on people, but on a luxury product. Nobody has to pay that extra tax the way they would if it were an income tax increase, a general sales tax, or even an increase to the gasoline tax.


Income isn't a tax on people, but on income. Seriously, it is a tax which will hit lower income people harder than higher income people, and one that should not be entertained now.
Semantics aside, the argument stands. Cigarettes are an optional luxury product, period. Anyone that's going to experience real hardship from this new tax can't afford to be a smoker anyway.

-Chaloobi

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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Semantics aside, the argument stands. Cigarettes are an optional luxury product, period. Anyone that's going to experience real hardship from this new tax can't afford to be a smoker anyway.


All that may be true, and as I said, this may even be a good idea someday. However, this is a tax which will hurt the poorer of us more than the richer of us and now is not the time to force the poorer of us to pay more in taxes.

(edited to say this might be a good idea some day if there is adequate government aid to help people quit smoking. I mean adequate, not half-assed)

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 04/02/2009 08:41:12
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:42:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cigarettes are an optional luxury product, period.


In your opinion.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  08:54:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chaloobi

Originally posted by Gorgo

Taxes on such purchases will still (financially) hurt poorer people more than wealthy people. Your idea that it's "voluntary" is beside his point.

It may or may not be a good idea, but it is still a regressive tax.
An argument can be made that what's actually hurting poorer people financially, in regards to cigarettes, is that this extremely addictive product is freely and copiously available. Furthermore if the higher tax discourages people from smoking, as it is intended, then they will actually be a tremendous financial benefit.

1 pk / day * 5.00/pk * 365 days/yr = $1,825

Hell, that's a hi-def tv right there.
Has tax increases curbed smoking in the past? So you think it is a good idea for the government to use taxes to punish people for using a legal product?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  09:42:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Robb:
Has tax increases curbed smoking in the past? So you think it is a good idea for the government to use taxes to punish people for using a legal product?

Well, I'm working on stopping. And, beyond health issues, the money I would save by not smoking is considerable and therefor factors in to my decision to quit. As for punishing people, no one has to smoke. And smoking related illness runs into the billions, annually, affecting the cost of healthcare, and not incidentally, the income tax you pay to fund things like medicare. So it's either "punish" you or "punish" smokers. Robb, sometimes you need to stand back and look at the bigger picture.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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WarfRat
New Member

49 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  09:48:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send WarfRat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taxing tobacco is a deterrent for cigarette smoking???
IF you follow that logic, why don't we legalize drugs then tax crack cocaine deals to deter drug use.

"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them."
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  10:03:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Well, I'm working on stopping.


You and a bunch of other people who will still, regardless of what they should be doing, smoke. If the purpose is to raise revenue, then the government is saying that they hope you continue to smoke to raise the revenue.

Again, now is not the time for regressive taxes.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  10:33:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by WarfRat

Taxing tobacco is a deterrent for cigarette smoking???
IF you follow that logic, why don't we legalize drugs then tax crack cocaine deals to deter drug use.
I'm totally with you. Want drug violence to stop? Legalize it.

-Chaloobi

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