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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  11:23:35  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...no warantless wiretapping.


Sen. Barack Obama slams President Bush's warrantless wiretap program at Dartmouth College in his last public appearance before the polls close here in New Hampshire:

For one thing, under an Obama presidency, Americans will be able to leave behind the era of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and "wiretaps without warrants," he said. (He was referring to the lingering legal fallout over reports that the National Security Agency scooped up Americans' phone and Internet activities without court orders, ostensibly to monitor terrorist plots, in the years after the September 11 attacks.)


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html




4/6/2009

Hope, Change and More Secret Wiretapping


President Barack Obama invoked “state secrets” to prevent a court
from reviewing the legality of the National Security Agency's
warantless wiretapping program, moving late Friday to have a lawsuit
that challenged the program dismissed.

The Justice Department also holds that the lawsuit can't proceed
because of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. They assert
that the US government has “sovereign immunity” against statutory
claims that it illegally wiretapped or accessed communications data.
In other words their victims have no legal recourse.

In February Obama lawyers used the same “state secrets” tactic
to block a lawsuit brought by the ACLU on behalf of five victims of
extraordinary rendition — the CIA's famed kidnap and torture
program. “This case cannot be litigated,” Department of Justice
lawyer Douglas Letter declared on February 9th, arguing that the
case, /Mohamed et al. v. Jeppesen Dataplan/, should be thrown out.
“The judges shouldn't play with fire in this national security
situation.”

ACLU director Anthony Romero decried the move. “Eric Holder's
Justice Department stood up in court today and said that it would
continue the Bush policy of invoking state secrets to hide the
reprehensible history of torture, rendition and the most grievous
human rights violations committed by the American government.”

Now, warrantless spying can be added to the list.

”In our case we have no reason to believe that the warrantless
wiretapping has ended,” said [EFF legal director Cindy] Cohn, “so at
some point we have to call it Obama's warrantless wiretapping.”

[B]eyond even the outrageously broad “state secrets” privilege
invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the
Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new
claim of government immunity, one which literally asserts that the
U.S. Government is free to intercept all of your communications
(calls, emails and the like) and — even if what they're doing is
blatantly illegal and they know it's illegal — you are barred from
suing them unless they “willfully disclose” to the public what they
have learned.

http://patterico.com

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-


Edited by - Bill scott on 04/09/2009 11:31:16

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  11:56:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That pisses me off, too. But I wonder; is he going along with this totolatarian crap to try and garner some Republican support for his upcoming nonminees? If so, that pisses me off equally as much because it is as futile as trying to extinguish the sun by spitting at it. The current "loyal opposition" is anything but, and Obama's smart enough to know it.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  13:04:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WTF?!?!?!

Here I thought Obama stood for change and bringing sanity and concience back to government...
And now they pull stunts like this.

I'm beginning to understand why there are so few Americans voters: Why give a flying fuck about who gets elected when you get royally screwed no matter where you put your ballot. Might as well use it as toilet paper.

I'm disappointed.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  13:19:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

That pisses me off, too. But I wonder; is he going along with this totolatarian crap to try and garner some Republican support for his upcoming nonminees? If so, that pisses me off equally as much because it is as futile as trying to extinguish the sun by spitting at it. The current "loyal opposition" is anything but, and Obama's smart enough to know it.







Funny how many similarities these guys have.

I mean both campaigned as fiscally responsible and all for freedom and human rights.


Yet by the time he left office W. initiated the warantless wiretaps, initiated the first 700 billion dollar bailout, and left us with a trillion dollar national dept.

And within his first 4 months Obama has expanded the wiretaps to protect the government from any prosecution from these wiretaps, he expanded the bailout mania into the trillions of dollars, his proposed budget will add trillions to the national dept, and his projected deficit spending goes on and on and on...

I first heard this on Tuesday's Keith Olberman show when he gave a scathing review of the president for this crap. I could not believe my ears the way Keith was lighting the president up. It almost sounded like rightwing talk radio. So the next day I google search the story and it wasn't as easy finding information on this as you would think it should be. I mean the way the media railed Bush for the wiretaps you would think this would be big that Obama is not only continuing the Bush policy but he is expanding it to protect the government from any recourse!?!?!?! This is big but yet the media no longer seems that interested as they once were. It's almost as if the media can't bash Obama cause they made it overtly obvious that he was their man during the campaign. Now that he is acting like Bush in so many ways I am sure they don't know what to do about this. So they just ignore it. I thought for sure you guys, with your ACLU membership cards, would be pizzed off and talking about it this slap in the face, but I could not find that thread so I had to start it myself. *sigh*

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  13:26:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

WTF?!?!?!

Here I thought Obama stood for change and bringing sanity and concience back to government...
And now they pull stunts like this.

I'm beginning to understand why there are so few Americans voters: Why give a flying fuck about who gets elected when you get royally screwed no matter where you put your ballot. Might as well use it as toilet paper.

I'm disappointed.




I am most disappointed myself, in all of our leaders. It's like they have a dog and pony show for the campaign but once they get in they all get power hungry and want more and more and more power...


It's almost as if the president is just a puppet for this Wizard of Oz who is hiding behind the curtens and pulling all the strings that would expand the reach and the power of the federal government. It don't matter if a dem or pub are in the seat as the WoO is the one pulling the strings.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  16:49:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems that protecting whatever state secrets would be exposed by allowing the court cases on the previous administration's wiretapping and rendition activities must mean that the Obama administration intends to continue doing those same activities, huh?

I find that conclusion ludicrous, but it seems that everyone in the thread so far has decided that it's true to some extent or other.

I expect that sort of short-sightedness fron Bill scott, not from the others.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1886 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  16:50:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am disappointed as well, but not surprised. It seems a presidence once establish through inherent powers of the office is hard to forgo.
Inherent power is a contentious issue. Even the Supreme Court has failed to resolve what exactly is meant by "inherent" powers. This relies on the judges to interpret the Constitution - which is a minefield. One issue that clouds a president's claim is the circumstances behind which a president claims inherent powers. One of the more commonly used circumstances is the phrase that "it is in the national interest".

I have recently finished reading "American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House" where I learned that he was the first to greatly expand the power of the presidency. Unfortunately, I don't see Obama giving back anything or having it taken from him. It will probably take another Nixon for the pendulem to start its swing back.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  20:33:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Dave and Moakley. Presidents have historically continued legal defenses against anything that actually or theoretically limits their power. But that's not the same thing as actually continuing a practice. I'd like to know more about what's really happening, but such knowledge seems hard to come by.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/09/2009 20:34:32
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  20:39:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

...but such knowledge seems hard to come by.
That's kinda the point to state secrets, ain't it?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  01:06:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ummm Obama caved in on this crap long before he was elected. If you recall he was involved in brokering some deal (as a senator) that left the telecom companies immune from prosecution for their participation.

Not sure why anyone is shocked or surprised by this.

Sadly, the people who could actually call him on this with some credibility(the "georgetown cocktail conservatives") have been crying wolf on a bunch of other things that are not really legitimate problems (calling Obama a socialist, etc). Their credibility is spent for now.

And wait... Did Bill Scott just complement Keith Olberman? I think a snowflake just formed in hell!


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  01:09:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also... I could have sworn there was a thread in here with Billy defending the idea of an all powerful exec (the Cheney Doctrine, as I call it). I can't seem to locate it (if it isn't just a figment of my imagination), so I can't call you a hypocrit on this one yet Bill.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  01:11:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

...but such knowledge seems hard to come by.
That's kinda the point to state secrets, ain't it?
Funny thing about that, eh?


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  01:15:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Ummm Obama caved in on this crap long before he was elected. If you recall he was involved in brokering some deal (as a senator) that left the telecom companies immune from prosecution for their participation.

Not sure why anyone is shocked or surprised by this.

Sadly, the people who could actually call him on this with some credibility(the "georgetown cocktail conservatives") have been crying wolf on a bunch of other things that are not really legitimate problems (calling Obama a socialist, etc). Their credibility is spent for now.

And wait... Did Bill Scott just complement Keith Olberman? I think a snowflake just formed in hell!


I'm not sure the telecoms should be open to prosecution for doing what the Feds demanded. They were probably given assurances that it was all legal. But the officials who demanded it should be.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  05:08:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems that protecting whatever state secrets would be exposed by allowing the court cases on the previous administration's wiretapping and rendition activities must mean that the Obama administration intends to continue doing those same activities, huh?

Not necessarily.

But the illegal wiretapping was a violation of people's civil rights. Whoever did it has be be held accountable, or people will lose confidence in due process. It's seriously undermining the respect for rule of law.

If certain aspects of the illegal wiretap are state secrets, and exposing it seriously compromises national security (which I doubt), then those specific facts could be withheld. No need to dismiss the entire case!
And if those state secrets got exposed in the course of the legal process regarding the illegal wiretaps, then charge the idiots who initiated the wiretaps, because it was their decision to wiretap that exposed those secrets in the first place.

The Obama administration had the opportunity to draw the line and say "the buck stops here, you can't sign acts to cover the ass of people who do illegal things just because the vice President wanted you to". Instead this sends a powerful signal that "anything goes, we'll cover your ass - regardless if you were Republican or not". And the wheel of abuse of power can continue to roll unimpeded.

On the other hand, if people knew that sooner or later there will be hell to pay for abusing power, then they will start thinking twice about committing illegal and unethical stuff.


Edited spelling

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/10/2009 05:11:29
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  05:20:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by moakley


I have recently finished reading "American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House" where I learned that he was the first to greatly expand the power of the presidency. Unfortunately, I don't see Obama giving back anything or having it taken from him.


Not only is he not giving the warrantless wiretap back, but he is expanding it to protect the government from prosecution or suit from those that were spied upon.


It will probably take another Nixon for the pendulem to start its swing back.


That ol pendulem. I wish sometimes we could just get it stopped in the middle rather then swinging it so far to the left, only to return to the right with major momentum, only to peek and the begin heading hard left again, only to...

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  05:23:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude



Ummm Obama caved in on this crap long before he was elected. If you recall he was involved in brokering some deal (as a senator) that left the telecom companies immune from prosecution for their participation.

Not sure why anyone is shocked or surprised by this.



I wasn't shocked that he kept the wiretapping privilege, even though he campaigned against it. I was shocked that Mr. Civil Liberty went one step further then Bush and has given the federal government immunity from any recourse brought by the public sector for these wiretaps.

In essence he just whipped out his ding-a-ling and pizzed all over the ACLU in this case.



Sadly, the people who could actually call him on this with some credibility(the "georgetown cocktail conservatives") have been crying wolf on a bunch of other things that are not really legitimate problems (calling Obama a socialist, etc). Their credibility is spent for now.



That's a good point.



And wait... Did Bill Scott just complement Keith Olberman? I think a snowflake just formed in hell!



Here is the funny thing about that. A buddy of mine and I go back and forth over this stuff and I was just telling him how I have been watching KO and he never ever has anything negative to say about the president. That night he launches his show with a 15 minute scathing rebuke of the president for not only allowing the continuing of the wiretaps, but expanding them to protect the government from any recourse. I was stunned! I found myself having to eat crow with my buddy, but I have to call a spade a spade and ol Keith surprised last Tuesday night, for sure.




Also... I could have sworn there was a thread in here with Billy defending the idea of an all powerful exec (the Cheney Doctrine, as I call it). I can't seem to locate it (if it isn't just a figment of my imagination), so I can't call you a hypocrit on this one yet Bill.


Not me. I will defend Bush and Cheney on very little. I think the Bush team bungled the war in Iraq, they blew the surplus they were given in 2000 and left us in debt at their departure, they had completely forsaken the pay as you go approach with their simultaneously cutting of taxes and increases in spending, he passed the biggest and most expensive entitlement program know to man, without anyway to pay for it besides deficit spending, he launched us into this bailout mania, which Obama has ramped up to a even higher level. I see very little to defend Bush on.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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