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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2009 : 20:46:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
Well, JC apparently didn't know they were one & the same. Guess he didn't know what Paul or any of the Christian apologists was going to write. |
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!| From one of the lists of contradictions at the Skeptics Annotated Bible, come these quotes "proving" that JC was not/was not God (or, if so God hadn't told him that part yet): |
Ah, yes, the Satanic Annotated Bible. Like I'm going to believe that.  | That last one is my favorite, flies right in the face of trinitarianism. |
Timothy was high. I've got video. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 20:48:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The original sin argument always has a BIG problem when applied to the virgin birth because the original sin was disobediance of God. (God said, "don't eat that". Eve and Adam ate that. God said, "everyone out of the pool". Adam pointed to Eve and said, "She made me do it". So, God punished Eve with a mensrual cycle and childbearing pains. Boy, what an asshole.)
One caveat. I haven't been Christian for 20 years. So this is based on the study I did when I was searching.
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I haven't thought about the original sin argument & the virgin birth before this, but hadn't run across it as something that Christian apologists turn blue trying to explain (like the different genealogies in Matthew & Luke). I've only previously run into the (wave hand dismissively) "oh, that's because of original sin" 'explanation'.
IS the virgin birth/original sin argument something that keeps apologists, or Christians who are really thinking about this stuff, awake at night?
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2009 : 22:03:55 [Permalink]
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| There is, of course, also the entire puzzle of how J "dying for [your] sins" was such a tremendous sacrifice when he was up & walking around 2 days later, & soon thereafter got to go to Heaven (way before anyone else, apparently). Maybe "sacrifice" is a relative term. |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 05:02:18 [Permalink]
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| The IC is the most important keystone in their house of cards, divine ancestry had a long and fruitful history up to that point, the only way of being truly special among humans and 'born to lead' was to be of divine origins. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 09:47:08 [Permalink]
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| It seems that the very early Christians did not at first equate Jesus with God. It only developed later, progressively. There is certainly some inkling of it in Matthew and John, and it's full blown in Luke. But Mark was much more low key. In fact, he did not even mention resurrection: it was added later in the later versions. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2009 : 23:28:28 [Permalink]
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The idea of "virgin birth" is a recurring theme (sort of) in several religions older than christianity. Mithra/s was born from a solid rock, Dionysus was sewn into Zeus' leg after his mother was killed (by Zeus) while pregnant, Horus was conceived and born after his father was dead. There are others with special birthing circumstances too.
Same for the resurrection (sort of). Osiris, the father of Horus, was briefly resurrected. The belief, as I understand it, of the Pharaohs was that they would also be resurrected and gain immortality when Osiris was resurrected again, hence all of the elaborate mummification and being buried with their treasure.
Christianity has clearly co-opted many things from other religions (holidays... really, why would christmas be the most celebrated holiday in this religion when the primary event that it revolves around (crucifiction/resurrection) is not?) It stretches coincidence that saturnalia/winter solstice just happens to coincide with the "birth" of jesus. Can't get those pagans to stop partying at the end of the year? Hrmmm, lets just invent some reason for our religion to throw an even bigger party and steal the holiday!
Christianity is parasitic (in more that one way) and unoriginal, imo.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 04:38:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Christianity is parasitic (in more that one way) and unoriginal, imo. |
So true. And analogous to the way the English language readily co-opts foreign words, this is a strength of the Christian meme.
They didn't invent the co-option idea, either. In Classical times, it was standard practice for the Greeks and the Romans to examine the gods and goddesses of foreign peoples, and to try to equate each with a Greco-Roman deity.
The Greeks, for instance, equated the Egyptian god Osiris with Dionysus. The Romans made lists of the Gallic and Germanic gods, assigning each to a Roman "equivalent." (In fairness, this practice of probably avoided a good deal of conflict over religion in Classical times.)
When the Christian church arose, many local gods and goddesses were incorporated as "historical" Christian saints. The Celtic goddess Brigid (with a center of worship in Kildare, Ireland where nineteen Celtic nuns upheld her worship) became the Catholic St. Brigid of Kildare, and on and on.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 06:48:18 [Permalink]
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Jesus had to rise from the dead so that he could ascend into heaven. Anybody left with an earthly corpse is supposed to be raised on judgement day. At least that's what Catholic school said.
The whole original sin thing connects to Mary and the virgin birth. Mary was said to be born without original sin (apparently by a miracle 'cause God needed a pure, human incubator) much in the way that Adam and Eve were created without sin until they created original sin, thus screwing over themselves and all of their descendants. In many traditional forms of Christianity Mary is also taken up to heaven in physical form instead of dying a normal death and being buried or whatnot.
From Wikipedia's entry "Assumption of Mary":
| The Assumption of Mary is the traditional belief held by Christians of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Protestant churches that the Virgin Mary at the end of her life was physically taken up into heaven. The Roman Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."[1] This means that Mary was transported into Heaven with her body and soul united. This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. |
Jesus and Mary are the only two figures in Christianity to go directly to heaven in this manner and the only thing they have in common is being without original sin.
To go more into the virgin birth - traditional Christian theology essentially fuses the physical and spiritual: Original sin has an impact on the physical world, Jesus is fully God and fully man, the Last Judgment involves the resurrection of the dead. It all sort of reminds me of ancient Egyptian beliefs.
The virgin birth is also connected to plain, old, run of the mill sexism. For Jesus to be a fully human, he has to be born to a woman, but she really is just an incubator. Family trees didn't emphasize women, they emphasized men. The family name and inheritance goes to sons. Daughters and wives are pretty much property. Consider old ideas about conception which assumed that sperm were each a tiny yet complete human just waiting to be incubated in a woman's womb. Jesus can't have an earthly father because that would psychologically compete with the idea of God as his father. But a mother, she's just an incubator and caretaker. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 06:56:13 [Permalink]
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| May not be completely relevant, but Andy Thompson's youtube video on "Why We Believe in God" touches lightly on some of these ideas. I think it's from the American Atheist Convention. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 07:37:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Jesus had to rise from the dead so that he could ascend into heaven. Anybody left with an earthly corpse is supposed to be raised on judgement day. At least that's what Catholic school said.
The whole original sin thing connects to Mary and the virgin birth. Mary was said to be born without original sin (apparently by a miracle 'cause God needed a pure, human incubator) much in the way that Adam and Eve were created without sin until they created original sin, thus screwing over themselves and all of their descendants. In many traditional forms of Christianity Mary is also taken up to heaven in physical form instead of dying a normal death and being buried or whatnot. |
In Catholic teaching, what exactly was "the" original sin? Disobedience, or discovery of sexuality, or something different?
From Wikipedia's entry "Assumption of Mary":
| The Assumption of Mary is the traditional belief held by Christians of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Protestant churches that the Virgin Mary at the end of her life was physically taken up into heaven. The Roman Catholic Church teaches as dogma that the Virgin Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."[1] This means that Mary was transported into Heaven with her body and soul united. This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. |
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Does it not bother Catholics that this isn't in the bible anywhere?? (I'm guessing the answer is no...)
| Jesus and Mary are the only two figures in Christianity to go directly to heaven in this manner and the only thing they have in common is being without original sin. |
But again, that's not how it goes in the source text...in 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind (and a chariot).
| To go more into the virgin birth - traditional Christian theology essentially fuses the physical and spiritual: Original sin has an impact on the physical world, Jesus is fully God and fully man, the Last Judgment involves the resurrection of the dead. It all sort of reminds me of ancient Egyptian beliefs. |
I wonder if hardscrabble existence contributes to fusion of physical & spiritual, whereas someone raised as a prince (Siddhartha Gautama), or in a well-established prosperous society like ancient Athens, is more likely to separate the physical and the spiritual. Just a thought.
The virgin birth is also connected to plain, old, run of the mill sexism. For Jesus to be a fully human, he has to be born to a woman, but she really is just an incubator. Family trees didn't emphasize women, they emphasized men. The family name and inheritance goes to sons. Daughters and wives are pretty much property. Consider old ideas about conception which assumed that sperm were each a tiny yet complete human just waiting to be incubated in a woman's womb. Jesus can't have an earthly father because that would psychologically compete with the idea of God as his father. But a mother, she's just an incubator and caretaker.
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Good point, except there is the weird inclusion of several women in the "genealogy of Jesus" (actually, of Joseph) in Matthew 1, and having 2 genealogies of Jesus-via-Joseph in the NT would seem to contradict the idea that it was crucial that Jesus didn't have an earthly father. (On the plus side, there's the contortions apologists have to go through trying to explain why the genealogies in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 are so different, with the "explanation" that one is actually Mary's genealogy, even though both say they are Joseph's genealogy.) |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 07:58:42 [Permalink]
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I was going to mention Elijah...
The messiah was supposed to be the heir of the house of David. So, the gospels writers did make up genealogies to prove that.
Only later did the son of God myth arise that made this pious forgeries irrelevant... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 10:25:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Zebra
In Catholic teaching, what exactly was "the" original sin? Disobedience, or discovery of sexuality, or something different? |
Hubris, or thinking they could become like god. It was that greed, that desire for power, that lack of humility which led them to disobey god and eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. From that point on, mankind was "cursed." But much of the curse was actually the burden of consciousness, the mental anguish that comes with knowledge and self-awareness. Baptism is the symbolic act of washing away original sin, but also of humbly recommitting oneself to god's authority. So it wasn't just disobedience, but the attitude that led to it. The idea that we know what's best for ourselves better than god. Hubris.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 11:16:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
But much of the curse was actually the burden of consciousness, the mental anguish that comes with knowledge and self-awareness. |
As they say, ignorance is bliss. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 11:59:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by H. Humbert
But much of the curse was actually the burden of consciousness, the mental anguish that comes with knowledge and self-awareness. |
As they say, ignorance is bliss.
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I'm not a huge fan of Ayn Rand, but she did make a good point in Atlas Shrugged. Basically she said that whatever Adam and Eve were before they ate the forbidden fruit and gained self-awareness and consciousness, they weren't human.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2009 : 13:30:21 [Permalink]
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Zebra wrote: | In Catholic teaching, what exactly was "the" original sin? Disobedience, or discovery of sexuality, or something different? |
Catholics don't considering the story to be literally true and I've never been given a simplistic interpretation from a priest or nun in school. Considering that the fruit is from the tree of knowledge and afterward they know good from evil, I always interpreted it as a myth that addresses how consciousness and the ability to be deliberate in our acts with expectations about various future outcomes makes humans (unlike other animals) accountable for our actions which might intentionally cause harm or good for others. What makes us so much more amazing than other animals is also what makes us often despicable.
| Does it not bother Catholics that this isn't in the bible anywhere?? (I'm guessing the answer is no...) |
Why should it? How much of theology is Biblical interpretation, not literally spelled out? Christianity originally didn't even have a single, uniform scripture. The Bible as we (sort of) know it today was put together by certain selected Christian leaders hundreds of years after Jesus's death (if the Jesus described in the Gospels even existed.) From that point on, there were hierarchical Christian institutions. Catholicism has always been about a hierarchy of authority figures. The idea is that the common people are too uneducated to interpret scripture. That should be left to clergy who spend their lives involved in the religion, and they can then give dumbed down bit to the people as needed. It wasn't until people started reading and the Bible was translated and copied on a regular basis that common people even started knowing what all was in the damn thing.
| But again, that's not how it goes in the source text...in 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind (and a chariot). |
Apparently that's a controversial claim. From Wikipedia's entry on Elijah: | In some Christian interpretations, the Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying that none have gone to heaven other than the Son of Man (Jesus Himself) (John 3:13). Accordingly, some Christians believe that Elijah was not assumed into heaven but simply transferred to another assignment either in Heaven[54] or with King Jehoram of Judah.[54] Indeed, the prophets reacted in such a way that makes sense if he was carried away, and not simply straight up (2Kings 2:16). |
I don't remember anybody addressing it when I was in Catholic school for 12 years. But much of the Old Testament is considered to be mythical or at least tall tales by Catholics. It is a weird sort of pick and choose, but for some reason they decided to take Jesus's divinity and all his miracles literally but Noah and the arc is a myth. I guess because the New Testament was written so much later than the Old. And also I'm sure interpreting things that way was somehow beneficial to the early church.
| Good point, except there is the weird inclusion of several women in the "genealogy of Jesus" (actually, of Joseph) in Matthew 1, and having 2 genealogies of Jesus-via-Joseph in the NT would seem to contradict the idea that it was crucial that Jesus didn't have an earthly father. (On the plus side, there's the contortions apologists have to go through trying to explain why the genealogies in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 are so different, with the "explanation" that one is actually Mary's genealogy, even though both say |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Why are virgin conception & resurrection so key?
