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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2009 : 22:29:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
No, it's not. Nobody is pro abortion.
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The issue has come up recently in my own extended circle of friends.
My own daughter is 17 years old and we have numerous friends with children in that age range. One family with a daughter a few years older than ours has learned their daughter is pregnant, and in my own household we had a pregnancy scare.
In both these cases the girls declared they wouldn't even consider an abortion. Both of these girls have mothers who are former early 70's era radicals who consider themselves to have been on the front lines of the early feminist movement. Both of these mothers consider themselves pro-choice, but feel that here the correct choice would be for the girls to have abortions so that unexpected children wouldn't interfere with college, etc.
So both of these mothers had to face that issue. When it came right down to it and it was personal, were they really pro-choice?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 04:05:43 [Permalink]
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By using pro-abortion Bill is framing the pro-choice crowd in a demonising way. That's the only thing that counts. It doesn't matter how screwed or fucked up the baby will grow up, as long as it does. If it plunges the young woman into destitution from which she never recovers, so be it.
I'm not saying this always happen, but it would happen way too often if the pro-lifers manage to ban abortion. Even the largest Christian conservative party in Sweden realise that and consequently does not push for a ban on abortion.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 05:53:14 [Permalink]
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But Mab, The pro-choice crowd demonize the pro life by saying they are against a woman's reproductive rights. Heck I want some of those rights too.
To relate a story, one of my friends is die-hard NOW member and very pro-choice. She confronted me on my pro-life stance. It was the extreme arguements. Would I force a rape victim to carry the baby to term? My answer was simple, it was the woman's choice. My turn, Would you have an abortion if you didn't like the gender of the child? She said hell no and she would rail against a woman who did. Extreme arguements.
This should not be about banning abortion but regulating it.
As far as the teens getting pregnant, well that sucks but sex is about reproduction. Pregnancy is not a side effect but the successful end result. That (and STD's) should be the sobering thought for teens to help them weigh the risk and rewards. If it doesn't, society is doing them a disservice. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 06:20:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
When it came right down to it and it was personal, were they really pro-choice? |
The fact that a person thinks there's only one correct choice doesn't negate the fact that there's a choice to be made between two (or more) legal options. And the pro-choice stance is one regarding government policy, not individual scenarios. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 06:35:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
But Mab, The pro-choice crowd demonize the pro life by saying they are against a woman's reproductive rights. |
And the pro-livers scream bloody murder... It's not even in the same league!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 07:02:24 [Permalink]
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| Ok I should have used pro choice. I did not mean to get the discussion off topic. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 08:21:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by WarfRat
But Mab, The pro-choice crowd demonize the pro life by saying they are against a woman's reproductive rights. |
And the pro-livers scream bloody murder... It's not even in the same league!
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Well that's propaganda and extremism for you. Both sides are guilty of extremist views and appeals to emotion.
(Thank you for proving my point).
Oddly,
Pro lifers are typically pro death penalty - judicial murder
Pro Choicers are the opposite.
go figure. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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WarfRat
New Member
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 09:45:52 [Permalink]
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| If I was Obama, I'd wait till the Minnesota mess is done and the Dems had the super majority. |
"I believe...that one benefits the workers...so much more by forcing through reforms which alleviate and strengthen their position, than by saying that only a revolution can help them." |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 12:08:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
When it came right down to it and it was personal, were they really pro-choice? |
The fact that a person thinks there's only one correct choice doesn't negate the fact that there's a choice to be made between two (or more) legal options. And the pro-choice stance is one regarding government policy, not individual scenarios.
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That's certainly a valid distinction, but it's still simply not true that nobody is pro-abortion. Lots of people are. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 12:31:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by WarfRat
To relate a story, one of my friends is die-hard NOW member and very pro-choice. She confronted me on my pro-life stance. It was the extreme arguements. Would I force a rape victim to carry the baby to term? My answer was simple, it was the woman's choice. My turn, Would you have an abortion if you didn't like the gender of the child? She said hell no and she would rail against a woman who did. Extreme arguements. |
What you did here was to outline some common ground where the two of you agree on.
Both of you are arguing as though the issue were some dichotomy where if she can get you to admit that abortion might be appropriate in some circumstances she can make you "pro-choice" and you feel if you can get her to admit sometimes abortion should be restricted, you can get her to support curbing some abortion rights. The problem is the two of you are not likely to see the common ground because both of you are concentrating on the extreme examples that support your arguments.
It should be possible to get politicians to legislate effectively within that common ground even while the overall issues are not settled among society as a whole. That would be an important benefit of a political climate that is less confrontational and less polarized.
Originally posted by WarfRat
As far as the teens getting pregnant, well that sucks but sex is about reproduction. Pregnancy is not a side effect but the successful end result. That (and STD's) should be the sobering thought for teens to help them weigh the risk and rewards. If it doesn't, society is doing them a disservice. |
This is where I feel conservatives just don't get it on teen sex. Individual responsibility is important, certainly everyone should be taught about it, but we should also recognize that teens are genetically programmed to make bad choices on sex. You can make teens (and humans in general) aware of all the logical arguments in the world, but their bodies, their hormones, their feelings are all driving them on a level that is untouched by logic and reason.
Nature's plan is to make it really easy for us to screw up and make babies when we're not ready for them because if we all waited until we were ready, most of us would never do it at all. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 15:59:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
That's certainly a valid distinction, but it's still simply not true that nobody is pro-abortion. Lots of people are. |
I know of nobody who's happy that they've had the procedure, or are looking forward to it. It's kind of like saying that one is "pro root canal," yes? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 22:27:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
That's certainly a valid distinction, but it's still simply not true that nobody is pro-abortion. Lots of people are. |
I know of nobody who's happy that they've had the procedure, or are looking forward to it. It's kind of like saying that one is "pro root canal," yes? |
Dave, it's my opinion that to be pro-abortion one only need to be pro-abortion. If you think they also need to look forward to the procedure with anticipation or to recall it with fondness, then I'm content to merely state my disagreement without arguing it further. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 13:44:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
That's certainly a valid distinction, but it's still simply not true that nobody is pro-abortion. Lots of people are. |
I know of nobody who's happy that they've had the procedure, or are looking forward to it. It's kind of like saying that one is "pro root canal," yes?
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What does it matter if you do not believe it is human? Most pro choice people do agree that in certain situations they believe abortion is the correct and rational answer. That is being pro abortion. Yes you do not want that situation to arise, but when it does pro choice people will think it is the best option. They are for having an abortion. Yes, there are women that are happy they had the procedure http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-481313/What-WE-think-abortion--women-.html |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 14:14:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
What does it matter if you do not believe it is human? |
I didn't say that it did. Why are you asking?| Most pro choice people do agree that in certain situations they believe abortion is the correct and rational answer. That is being pro abortion. Yes you do not want that situation to arise, but when it does pro choice people will think it is the best option. They are for having an abortion. |
You and I both know that that's not what the term refers to, either in context here or in the context of its anti-abortion coiners.Did you actually read those? Only two of the seven have "no regrets" but even they were pretty unhappy about it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 15:06:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
That's certainly a valid distinction, but it's still simply not true that nobody is pro-abortion. Lots of people are. |
I know of nobody who's happy that they've had the procedure, or are looking forward to it. It's kind of like saying that one is "pro root canal," yes?
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The distinction is this:
I'm in favor of a patient having the right to choose getting a root canal if their dentist says they should have one. (A good dentist would of course explain why they needed one beyond their terrible toothache.)
Likewise, women should have the right to choose getting an abortion. It is understandable that some people would be apprehensive in terms of the notion that it is akin to someone who wants a root canal but doesn't need one. But the issue is the right to choose. Circumstances and details follow after that right.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Souter retires!
