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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2009 : 08:15:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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The difference is you aren't being discriminated against. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 09:07:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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The difference is you aren't being discriminated against.
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This has nothing to do with the question asked by Dave |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 09:57:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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The difference is you aren't being discriminated against.
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This has nothing to do with the question asked by Dave
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Perhaps not, but it does go to the heart of the main problem as I see it. So far, that has been my focus in this thread... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 10:21:53 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | I was brought up Catholic as well. They add to the Bible's message. What is unclear about "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comnes to the father escept through me."? |
What does it mean for people to come to God through the way and the truth and the life? I was taught at my Catholic school religious teacher, a nun, that nonChristians achieve salvation through the purity of their souls and that that is the meaning of such passages. What is primitive about your interpretation is that you interpret it as that people must literally believe that the historical man Jesus was the Messiah. But that's not what the Bible says. If it wanted to be clear, Jesus would have said "Only people who believe that I am the Messiah and worship me as the Messiah can get into heaven." Instead he used this poetic language about him being the "way and the truth and the life" which could be intrepreted quite a few ways, including that people who work toward living as close to a a Christ-like life (but again, whatever that means. Does it mean live his lifestyle of shunning family and going off to preach or does it simply mean being compassionate toward others?) can get into heaven.
| You asked me my interpretation and I told you. If you disagree fine. I don't see the point of argueing what the Bible says and how to interpret it. |
The point of arguing what the Bible says is to reveal that there is no obvious way to interpret it. You stated that some basic ideas were obvious, but they aren't and never have been, and this is proven by all the various different sects of Christianity which interpret it all different ways.
| You will interpret the Bible the way you want no matter how I defend my position. |
Everyone will interpret the Bible the way they want to (and let's keep in mind that what we "want" in an interpretation may not be what we personally want to serve our own selfish ends, but what seems most like truth to us. I honestly think the Bible doesn't say anything about modern, committed gay relationships because such things didn't exist when the Bible was written. I don't think the Biblical authors would know what to make of much of our modern society's values and lifestyle, homosexual or not.) People have no other choice that to interpret the Bible how they see fit because the proper interpetation isn't obvious. The difference is that some people are much more confident in their interpretation than others.
| You have already claimed that the Bible is contradictary and not clear on anything. Can I really say anyting to convince you that it is wrong according to the Bible? |
Given the limits of what we can know about the Bible and its meaning, no, you can't convince me. My own reading of the Bible and understanding of it as well as the rest of Christian history is what turned me away from Christianity in the first place. I respect Christians who are Christians because some aspects of the religions ring true for them personally, so long as they remain humble about their own interpretations. I have no respect for forms of Christianity that are self-righteous and delude themselves into thinking they have the answers for everyone.
| The problem is homosexuals are not going to hell just for homosexual acts. They are going to hell because they have lied, worshiped idols, lusted, murdered in their hearts, coveted etc. |
Everyone has done things which they would consider wrong, sometimes regretting it, sometimes not. You obviously don't think that everyone goes to hell, so your belief that homosexuals are going to hell isn't based on the idea that they sin, but it is based on the idea that they are unrepentant about something that you think is a sin but which they think is not a sin. There are gay Christians out there who are in committed homosexual relationships who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. By your logic, those gay people are going to heaven, right? After all, they believe in Jesus. How is it their fault that they've apparently misinterpreted the Bible and concluded - under quite rational, historical grounds - that the Bible doesn't say anything about their loving relationship and its sexual expression. How can you be so arrogant as to think that your interpretation of the Bible is true and unclouded by your own personal wants and needs, but then assume that other peoples' different interpretations are clouded by their own desires? You have nothing but your own guesses. You are human and fallible like all of us. If you admit that you have no special perception into the spiritual realm that protects your Biblical interpretation from mistakes, and yet you still have a beef with Christians who interpret the Bible differently from you, then you are calling those people liars. You are essentially claiming that if everyone were honest, they'd interpret the Bible the same as you do. But they don't, so either we're all likely to be wrong or the only people being honest are people who think like you.
| They are condemned regardless of their sexual orientation. Do you agree that the Bible teaches that any one of these are sins? |
I agree that the Bible puts forth the concept of "sin" as meaning wrong-doing, and that in the context of thousands of passages, it gives examples of wrong-doing. But as to whether any one discreet act is considered sinful or not is debatable because the context of any act is not going to be exactly the same as a similar act condemned in the Bible. Some Christians think drinking any alcohol is sinful and use the Bible to back them up. Others claim that it is only getting drunk which is sinful, and they also use the Bible to back them up. Likewise, some Christians think any homosexual acts are sinful, and use the Bible to back them up. Others point out that the Bible never says anything about loving, committed homosexual relationships, but only condemns a tiny handful of gay sex acts connected with foreign pagan worship and prostitution. They then look at other passages from the Bible which glorify love and sex in the context of a loving relationship, and conclude that some forms of gay sex are not sinful at all.
But most people do not decide whether something is a sin or not based on the Bible. Most people go with their moral sense. Your moral sense I suspect find homosexual sex repulsive and unnatural. But for a couple who are in love and perhaps even raising children together, and for their friends who witness their relationship, the idea of gay relationships being automatically sinful is antiquated and absurd. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 10:34:37 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals? |
You deserve to be condemned to infinite lifetimes worth of torture for thoughts that you can't even control. That is why I can't respect your form of Christianity.
If I actually thought that most people deserved hell, I could never feel any sympathy for peoples' suffering in this life. I could not feel empathy for a starving child, a grieving wife of a soldier, a victim of cancer, because I'd think that what they are enduring in this life seems like a picnic compared to hell.
Nobody deserves a literal hell. Psychokillers don't deserve it. Abusive pedophiles don't deserve it. If we all deserve it for just how we are born, then the blame should land squarely on our creator, not us.
And while I can agree that certain harmful acts are wrong (wrong in the sense that I base on ideas about right and wrong on what can reasonably be expected to cause harm or help beings with feelings) the idea that inappropriately lusting after someone (but not doing anything) is wrong is so absurd I can't help but keep rolling my eyes. Married people who feel occasional lust for others (which I think we all do) but control ourselves enough to not act on it deserve to be commended, not condemned. I find your thinking on the human condition incredibly sad and I am incredibly thankful that I do not share it. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 13:51:28 [Permalink]
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| Thanks Marf. that's some inspiring thinking there. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:31:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
If I actually thought that most people deserved hell, I could never feel any sympathy for peoples' suffering in this life. I could not feel empathy for a starving child, a grieving wife of a soldier, a victim of cancer, because I'd think that what they are enduring in this life seems like a picnic compared to hell.
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The destruction of human sympathy.
Is this not the deliberate import and intent of the story of The Binding of Isaac - the betrayal of humanity? Is it possible this is the purpose of the concept of original sin? Is it possible this might be central to, indeed the very meaning of God-centered thinking? Is it possible this is necessary to the very idea of religious faith?
Then a patchwork of supernatural excuses is created to justify charity and human sympathy, stemming from God instead of from us. Suddenly our humanity is no longer ours and is easily manipulable for reasons that have nothing to do with humanity. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 15:57:05 [Permalink]
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Sorta.
I'd say that the role of the story, really, of a lot of the Bible, was to emphasize how blind allegiance to God (and the priest that represented him: the authors of the story) was so much more important that attachment to one's self-interest (keeping your heir alive) and humanity... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 18:24:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
You deserve to be condemned to infinite lifetimes worth of torture for thoughts that you can't even control. That is why I can't respect your form of Christianity. |
If God is Just he will sentence us to hell for one little lie.
| If I actually thought that most people deserved hell, I could never feel any sympathy for peoples' suffering in this life. I could not feel empathy for a starving child, a grieving wife of a soldier, a victim of cancer, because I'd think that what they are enduring in this life seems like a picnic compared to hell. |
Maybe thats you, buts thats not the attitude of most Christians I know.
| Nobody deserves a literal hell. Psychokillers don't deserve it. Abusive pedophiles don't deserve it. If we all deserve it for just how we are born, then the blame should land squarely on our creator, not us. |
A baby deserves hell. Why should you get to make the choice of what happens to the people you listed?
And while I can agree that certain harmful acts are wrong (wrong in the sense that I base on ideas about right and wrong on what can reasonably be expected to cause harm or help beings with feelings) the idea that inappropriately lusting after someone (but not doing anything) is wrong is so absurd I can't help but keep rolling my eyes. Married people who feel occasional lust for others (which I think we all do) but control ourselves enough to not act on it deserve to be commended, not condemned. I find your thinking on the human condition incredibly sad and I am incredibly thankful that I do not share it.
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I think that people that do not act on their thoughts should be commened as well. I do not judge people God does. He does tell us what he will judge us on.
What did I say about the human condition that was wrong? Look at the ten commandments and what Jesus said about them and tell me that you are a good person even though you have broken all of those commandments that I assume most of them you agree are wrong. People judge themselves good because they compare themselves to others. But compared to the Bibles standard we are not good. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 18:40:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
But compared to the Bibles standard we are not good. |
Compared to the Bible's standard, it is impossible to be good without being a god. And since there is (allegedly) only one of those, it's nothing more than an impossible standard, period.
Now say that I set an impossible standard for you to live by, Robb, and I also gave you a way out that depended upon your submission to me in return for some far-off promise. Why in the world would you ever pay attention to me, on either side of the deal?| If God is Just he will sentence us to hell for one little lie. |
Why? Because He faked His suicide? Is that your basis for what is "just?"
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 18:53:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
But compared to the Bibles standard we are not good. |
Compared to the Bible's standard, it is impossible to be good without being a god. And since there is (allegedly) only one of those, it's nothing more than an impossible standard, period. |
Exactly. How can you say someone is good if they tell one lie unless you compare them to others that do more than just lie?
| Now say that I set an impossible standard for you to live by, Robb, and I also gave you a way out that depended upon your submission to me in return for some far-off promise. Why in the world would you ever pay attention to me, on either side of the deal? |
Because he created everything. When you submit to Jesus you are free from the guilt of sinning against God. That sin is no longer attributed to you. You are freed and not in a state of bondage.
| If God is Just he will sentence us to hell for one little lie. |
Why? Because He faked His suicide? Is that your basis for what is "just?" |
If you were to believe in a God, would you want him/her to be just?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:14:31 [Permalink]
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And yet, according to your Bible, Evil only exist in the world because of the implicit (and sometime explicit) approval of your God.
Your position is a sad and scary one. One that make no difference between the vilest of murderers and the baby in the cradle, hell, one that think that the murderer, provided he utter a short magic phrase, is more deserving of heaven than the baby.
I have no respect for your position and I have no respect for your God. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:38:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
And yet, according to your Bible, Evil only exist in the world because of the implicit (and sometime explicit) approval of your God.
Your position is a sad and scary one. One that make no difference between the vilest of murderers and the baby in the cradle, hell, one that think that the murderer, provided he utter a short magic phrase, is more deserving of heaven than the baby.
I have no respect for your position and I have no respect for your God.
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You don't get my position. That's Ok. Have a nice day. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:43:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Exactly. How can you say someone is good if they tell one lie unless you compare them to others that do more than just lie? |
That's the only source I've got for comparison, Robb. People who lie less often are "better" than people who lie more often. Nobody is perfect, so expecting them to be perfect is insane. Why is this a problem for you? Do you really need an absolute and impossible standard against which to compare people?| Because he created everything. |
Including evil. And He created the situation through which He deems you (and everyone else) worthy of Hell from birth, due to the sins of your ancestors.| When you submit to Jesus you are free from the guilt of sinning against God. That sin is no longer attributed to you. You are freed and not in a state of bondage. |
Quite the opposite. Given your God's attributes, you are in bondage to Him whether you live in guilt or not. Just because you want to be His plaything doesn't mean you're not His plaything, Robb.| If God is Just he will sentence us to hell for one little lie. |
Why? Because He faked His suicide? Is that your basis for what is "just?" |
If you were to believe in a God, would you want him/her to be just? |
Is this rhetorical? You didn't answer my question. But I'll play along: my ideal deity's standards of justice would be those that are possible in principle for a regular human being to meet.
Your God's aren't. Your God had to perform some street theater in order to give His failed creation a way out of His impossible demands, or else everyone would continue go to Hell. That's not Justice, that's a "Get Out of Jail Free" card that means nothing less than that you don't have to put any effort towards being good. The crap in 1 John is irrelevant: if people think they are "saved," they have justified their bad behaviors in this world as being irrelevant to their ultimate salvation. Good works aren't enough to get one into Heaven, and bad works aren't enough to get one into Hell. Once people believe they have "accepted Jesus," they can rationalize any behavior they wish to. The fact that you personally don't wish to rationalize away your sins, Robb, is irrelevant to the hedonistic message of Protestantism. You're free, alright: free to be a sociopath. You just don't want to because your conscience is stuck here on this dirtball, instead of thinking it's already in Heaven (that's a good thing). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 21:46:22 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | If God is Just he will sentence us to hell for one little lie. |
I disagree. How is an eternity in hell a just response to "one little lie." The very concept of a literal hell is absurd. It is just as primitive and obviously invented as the Hades from Greek mythology. It has no connection to the reality of the human condition except as the idea of the most extreme punishment ever.
| Maybe thats you, buts thats not the attitude of most Christians I know. |
You make no sense. You claim to truly believe that babies and everyone else deserve hell, but then you turn around to defend empathy and compassion for our piddly-by-comparison suffering here on earth? That's some pretty serious compartmentalized thinking.
Also, Christians who believe in a literal hell are much more likely to support torture. I guess if you think it is the ultimate and most perfect justice for people to be tortured by God for their very nature, then the idea of criminals being tortured for information is child's play. This might not be your stance, but it is a fact that Christians who believe in a literal hell are more likely to support government-sponsored torture.
| I think that people that do not act on their thoughts should be commened as well. |
Why?
| I do not judge people God does. He does tell us what he will judge us on. |
No. You interpret what you believe to be the word of God to mean what you think it should mean. That's why interpretation of God's word vary to widely. Again I ask, what gives you such confidence about your interpretation? Why are you less prone to be deluded by your own biases and desires than anyone else interpreting the Bible?
| What did I say about the human condition that was wrong? |
I look at humanity and see great beauty as well as great ugliness, and everything in between. Ultimately I love people, which is why I ascribe to the Humanist philosophy. I see what wonders we are capable of and I want to create a world that helps to maximize that potential in every individual. I am inspired by the average Joe who lives a good life by being productive, enjoying his relationships and the every day wonders and pleasures that life has to offer. I am also inspired by the works and discoveries of great artists and scientists. I love humanity, despite our potential for disaster and harm, because it is my love for humanity which ultimately makes me feel horror, disgust, shame, and rage when I see some people doing great harm to others. I don't need God for any of that. My humanity and everyone else's is sufficient.
I respect people who use God in their worldview as a vehicle for the same humanistic impulses that I feel. People who put the concept of God on their compassion and empathy and deep feeling of love and connectedness with others and the whole of creation. But your form of theism seems to use God as a means for despising humanity and our condition. We are nothing but wretched from what you've said. Even before we even reach the age of reason we deserve eternal torment. Just reading what you've written here makes me feel nauseous. It is almost as if you just hate life and want to die, but having no guts to off yourself, concoct this fantasy which allows you to continue despising this life while pretending something better comes after.
| Look at the ten commandments and what Jesus said about them and tell me that you are a good person even though you have broken all of those commandments that I assume most of them you agree are wrong. |
You assume incorrectly. The first four Commandments are about God, and I don't believe God exists. I believe that parents should only be honored if they are deserving of honor. Of course what it means to "honor" is debatable too. I also believe that in some cases it is better to life than tell the truth, although usually the truth is the right thing to do. Same deal with killing - I typically would agree that it is wrong, but there are exceptions. Same deal with stealing - most of the time wrong, but if you are starving I don't think there's anything morally wrong with stealing bread. I've already made it clear that I don't think coveting is sinful - I only view actions as violating morality or ethics. As for adultery, I think it is wrong to cheat if one is in an agreed-on monogamous relationship. However, I do not think that open marriages or marriages among swingers is morally questionable, and technically those people are committing adultery.
| People judge themselves good because they compare themselves to others. |
People also judge themselves bad in comparison to others. People often work to improve themselves because they are inspired by mentors and heros who embody an ideal of what they want to be like. Even without any belief in gods, people aspire toward ideals and work to improve themselves.
| But compared to the Bibles standard we are not good. |
Again, I disagree. The Bible is full of blatant moral contradictions. You yourself say how the New Testament nullifies the laws of the Old Testament. God clearly has people do things which are against his own moral rules, such as asking people to murder but then saying that murder is breaking a divine Commandment. It isn't even possible in theory to live up to Biblical standards because as far as I can tell, there are no consistent Biblical standards. And again we return to the problem of interpretation - a literal reading of the Bible is completely insufficient for deciphering any clear code of conduct. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
