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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2009 : 22:41:05 [Permalink]
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People... you do know that you can't argue rationally with a person who (in this context) is inherently irrational, don't you?
Because, seriously, if rational arguments worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 03:05:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
People... you do know that you can't argue rationally with a person who (in this context) is inherently irrational, don't you?
Because, seriously, if rational arguments worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
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Depends upon the definition used, yes? |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 05:22:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Originally posted by Dude
People... you do know that you can't argue rationally with a person who (in this context) is inherently irrational, don't you?
Because, seriously, if rational arguments worked on religious people, there would be no religious people.
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Depends upon the definition used, yes?
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Only if you live in Canadia.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 10:59:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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Well there's your problem right there. Belief that one is deserving of eternal torture merely for being human. That is so f'd up I can't believe anyone would subscribe to it.
Robb, I believe you have said that you have children. So do I. I was there when each of them was born. The first time I held one of my children and looked at him or her, the thought that "you are deserving of an eternity in hell" was the farthest thing from what I was thinking (although I will admit that in the ensuing years it has crossed my mind a couple of times  ). I just don't see how anyone could defend that position. In fact, it is probably one of the strongest of the many reasons I have for rejecting christianity. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 11:58:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Abusive pedophiles don't deserve it.
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I'm not sure I agre with you here, Marf...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 17:37:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by marfknox
Abusive pedophiles don't deserve it.
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I'm not sure I agre with you here, Marf...
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Well, we are talking about eternal, relentless torment here, Mab. It just doesn't get more twisted and sick than that.
I mean, if we take the metaphor of God being the father and humanity being his children seriously, then what is hell, but the systematic, methodical, eternal torture of children. Pedophilia is a subset of that, yes? If you see hell as just a disenfranchisement from the rest of humanity, then isn't that torment as well?
Remember, hell is posited to be the ultimate revenge device. It cannot be seen as a disciplinary device because there is no possibility of release and rehabilitation. I share your rage at the pedophile, but let's not let that blind us to what the christian hell really is. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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| Edited by - dglas on 05/23/2009 17:38:24 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 17:51:17 [Permalink]
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Robb,
For what it's worth, just one human to another, I do not think you are intrinsically evil, and I think we do ourselves and everyone else a catastrophic disservice when we claim that we are. You are just another living, breathing, human being, just like me or anyone else. (Assuming of course, I am a "person" ;) ).
You feel the guilt of not just perceived wrongs, but necessary wrongs. Guilt's nasty isn't it? Is that really what you want to pass on to your children. An eternal recapitulation to self-loathing - is that really all the future holds, forever and ever?
A man came into my store one time and was complaining that kids today didn't know real strife or war or any of the horrors he had to fight through. I asked him, "Well, wasn't that the point?" Tell me, what is the point of the endless psychological torture like you go through? If a father demanded that his children be terrified of him every single second of every single day, forever, wouldn't we call that abuse? |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 08:47:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Robb,
For what it's worth, just one human to another, I do not think you are intrinsically evil, and I think we do ourselves and everyone else a catastrophic disservice when we claim that we are. You are just another living, breathing, human being, just like me or anyone else. (Assuming of course, I am a "person" ;) ).
You feel the guilt of not just perceived wrongs, but necessary wrongs. Guilt's nasty isn't it? Is that really what you want to pass on to your children. An eternal recapitulation to self-loathing - is that really all the future holds, forever and ever?
A man came into my store one time and was complaining that kids today didn't know real strife or war or any of the horrors he had to fight through. I asked him, "Well, wasn't that the point?" Tell me, what is the point of the endless psychological torture like you go through? If a father demanded that his children be terrified of him every single second of every single day, forever, wouldn't we call that abuse?
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The law is only to bring you to Christ and his grace. (Gal 3:24). Once you have recieved Gods grace there is no guilt to feel (Ro 8:1). People would not know sin without the law. People cannot be saved without understanding the law. But grace overtakes sin (Ro 5:20)and lets you live a free life in service to God.
You seem to think that I get up every morning and look at a list of rules that God makes and every time I break one I torture myself with guilt. Not so. My mom is not a Christian and she is very overcome with guilt for various things in her life. I would like her to be free of that guilt.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 08:57:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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Well there's your problem right there. Belief that one is deserving of eternal torture merely for being human. That is so f'd up I can't believe anyone would subscribe to it.
Robb, I believe you have said that you have children. So do I. I was there when each of them was born. The first time I held one of my children and looked at him or her, the thought that "you are deserving of an eternity in hell" was the farthest thing from what I was thinking (although I will admit that in the ensuing years it has crossed my mind a couple of times ). I just don't see how anyone could defend that position. In fact, it is probably one of the strongest of the many reasons I have for rejecting christianity.
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What does that have to do with anything? I looked at my children when they were born and thought that they could not have just happened by nature with no creator. If the Bible did not teach we deserved hell, then I would not advocate Christianity since we would not need Jesus.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 09:51:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Once you have recieved Gods grace there is no guilt to feel (Ro 8:1). |
So you have license to indulge every whim. Why don't you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 18:00:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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Well there's your problem right there. Belief that one is deserving of eternal torture merely for being human. That is so f'd up I can't believe anyone would subscribe to it.
Robb, I believe you have said that you have children. So do I. I was there when each of them was born. The first time I held one of my children and looked at him or her, the thought that "you are deserving of an eternity in hell" was the farthest thing from what I was thinking (although I will admit that in the ensuing years it has crossed my mind a couple of times ). I just don't see how anyone could defend that position. In fact, it is probably one of the strongest of the many reasons I have for rejecting christianity.
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What does that have to do with anything? I looked at my children when they were born and thought that they could not have just happened by nature with no creator. If the Bible did not teach we deserved hell, then I would not advocate Christianity since we would not need Jesus.
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What does that have to do with anything? It is at the core of your belief system, that every living human, even that newborn you held in your arms, is deserving of eternal torture. What exactly has that baby done to deserve hell?
As for your thoughts when your children were born, you are certainly entitled to them, but you may want to study a little biology. Babies don't "just happen". You and the missus have to participate in the process first.  |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 23:46:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I looked at my children when they were born and thought that they could not have just happened by nature with no creator.
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Sounds like a classic argument from incredulity.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 23:47:21 [Permalink]
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By the way...
Sorry to hear about the decision by the California Supreme Court with regards to same sex marriage.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2009 : 00:28:41 [Permalink]
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California and other states that allow "ballot initiatives" that modify the state's constitution need to drop them.
Direct democracy is a massively stupid idea.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2009 : 04:55:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
If the Bible did not teach we deserved hell, then I would not advocate Christianity since we would not need Jesus.
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God is a medicine man and Jesus is snake oil?
"You my friend are guilty of original sin and deserve hell. But don't fret for right here I hold in my hand a salve to absolve you your fate. The key to your salvation. All this for just a mere tithe"
edited: to add the last sentence of the pitch |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 05/27/2009 04:58:08 |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
