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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2009 : 07:47:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
1. Why did he not use his driver? Maybe he would ruin the mood of the moment for Ted and Mary Jo? |
Well, Bill, you quoted the reason he gave (which is expanded upon if you follow the footnotes), and you simply reject it in favor of creating a sleazy narrative.| 4. He is already in damage control mode. He has no idea if she is alive or dead when he walks past the houses at the accident site where he could have called for help. He has already placed his political career as more important then this girls life. |
Yeah, because killing a woman looks a lot better than an affair.  Good grief, Bill, it's like JFK and Marilyn Monroe never happened.| 5. Kennedy goes past houses where he could have called for help to go get his friends to try and rescue Mary Jo because going to these houses would have got the cops involved. |
Idiotic, since the cops were going to become involved at some point, no matter what.| 7. In his desperation to save himself he has delusioned himself to think there must be someway he can get through this without it going public. |
"Delusion" is now a verb?| 8. More proof that had Kennedy just reported the accident right away this girl could be alive today. But of course that would have meant that Kennedy's political carrer would have taken a big hit. So Kennedy decided his political carreer was more valuable to him then his girlfriend's life. |
More implications that you think that an affair would have been more politically devastating than a death.| 11. Really, no manslaughter charges despite the conclusions? It's almost as if him being a powerful US senator and a Kennedy got some strings pulled for him. |
It's almost as if there wasn't enough evidence to prove manslaughter, like the DA said. What you've got isn't evidence, it's innuendo.| Obviously this dude did not deserve to go back to the US senate... |
Obviously, the voters had a different opinion.| ...but rather deserved to go to jail. |
Obviously, the DA, a couple of judges and a grand jury had a different opinion.| Like I said if "dedicated public service" is all that is needed for manslaughter to be swept under the rug... |
Assumes that there was manslaughter, for which no evidence has been presented.| ...I am sure the prisons are full of manslaughter convections who want their shot at doing some public service in trade for the incident to be swept under the rug. |
They should have thought of that before they got convicted, if your hypothesis were correct.| If you guys want to sing this guys praises then you do so with the blood of Mary Jo on your hands. |
I guess Mary Jo's parents had their own daughter's blood on their hands, too.| Me, I find him to be nothing but a coward and jerk who put his political career ahead of the life of his girlfriend. |
Again, as if killing someone had fewer consequences than an affair. Your priorities in fabricating this story are completely backwards.| As if the US would just cease to exist if TK were not in the senate. *sigh* |
What an idiotic thing to say just days after "the dude" permanently left the Senate. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 07:48:37 [Permalink]
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Should'a ought'a could'a -- but you know what Bill; I don't care. All that concerns me is his service to the United States of America. If you don't like the fact that he was repeatedly reelected, take it up with the voters of MA.
It's like that shithead of a governor of SC, you know, the one with extracurricular squeeze in Argentina. I don't care about that, either. He can plough that furrow from now 'till then, as long as he does it on his own time and his own dime. I despise him for entirely different reasons.
Kennedy got busted, he was sentenced, and the voters sill called him back. All else is no longer important.
Don't you right-wing fruit-bats have anything better to do than bad-mouth a man who, despite all of his faults, had shoes far too big for any of you to fill?
Edit: I guess not. The out-patients are out in force!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/27/2009 08:36:17 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 08:56:36 [Permalink]
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Bill:
As if the US would just cease to exist if TK were not in the senate. *sigh* |
Clearly the US still exists. But it's now a better place in many ways because of Ted Kennedy.
And unlike the speculations and innuendo that you favor, Bill, the good he did for the country is a demonstrable fact.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 09:10:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Bill:
As if the US would just cease to exist if TK were not in the senate. *sigh* |
Clearly the US still exists. But it's now a better place in many ways because of Ted Kennedy.
And unlike the speculations and innuendo that you favor, Bill, the good he did for the country is a demonstrable fact.
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But why are we still talking about him? Could he sing or dance? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 11:00:34 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Well, Bill, you quoted the reason he gave (which is expanded upon if you follow the footnotes), and you simply reject it in favor of creating a sleazy narrative. |
It was a lame explanation and made no sense. In light of the whole story that he was leaving with his girlfriend made much more sense
| Yeah, because killing a woman looks a lot better than an affair. Good grief, Bill, it's like JFK and Marilyn Monroe never happened. |
He was obviously under the delusion that he could somehow keep all of this out of the public eye. The drunken affair and the killing.
| Idiotic, since the cops were going to become involved at some point, no matter what. |
Obviously he was hoping for a miracle and that she would still be alive when he and his friends returned, or the next morning. His whole plot from the beginning was based on keeping this from reaching the cops. He was a desperate man with much to loose.
| "Delusion" is now a verb? |
Either way his delusion caused him to him to somehow believe that this was all, somehow, someway, going to go away. I am sure him being a Kennedy and all propelled this delusion.
| More implications that you think that an affair would have been more politically devastating than a death. |
He was attempting to cover up both.
| It's almost as if there wasn't enough evidence to prove manslaughter, like the DA said. What you've got isn't evidence, it's innuendo. |
I say him being a Kennedy and a senator sounds much more believable as to why he walked. The DA can say all he wants.
| Obviously, the voters had a different opinion. |
He is one of the Princes of Camelot. He could piss on them and they would vote for him.
| Assumes that there was manslaughter, for which no evidence has been presented. |
There was a ton of evidence.
| They should have thought of that before they got convicted, if your hypothesis were correct. |
What, that if they were a US senator named Kennedy they wouldn't have to worry about committing manslaughter.
| I guess Mary Jo's parents had their own daughter's blood on their hands, too. |
They were given money. The ol' Kennedy/senators way of dealing with things.
| Again, as if killing someone had fewer consequences than an affair. Your priorities in fabricating this story are completely backwards. |
He was under the delusion that he could cover up both. Just like Pete Rose and OJ, everyone knows he did it, just admit it.
| What an idiotic thing to say just days after "the dude" permanently left the Senate. |
Yet true. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 12:00:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
There was a ton of evidence. |
Innuendo isn't evidence, Bill.| They should have thought of that before they got convicted, if your hypothesis were correct. |
What, that if they were a US senator named Kennedy they wouldn't have to worry about committing manslaughter. |
Right. If that were the case, then the people in prison that you're whining about would have had to have done lots of public good before they came up on manslaughter charges. Which Kennedy never did, so there's a bit of a problem for you right there.| I guess Mary Jo's parents had their own daughter's blood on their hands, too. |
They were given money. The ol' Kennedy/senators way of dealing with things. |
And now you've gone from insulting Kennedy to insulting the Kopechne family. What do you care, Bill, about a poor woman who came from such a disgusting family that they'd take money to say nice things about the guy who killed their daughter?| He was under the delusion that he could cover up both. |
Where is there evidence for this?| Just like Pete Rose and OJ, everyone knows he did it, just admit it. |
Pete Rose confessed to tax evasion (and did five months) and betting on his own team. Simpson was ordered to pony up over $33 million for a couple of deaths, owes another $1.4 million in taxes, was found guilty of pirating DirecTV, and is looking at serious jail time for his Las Vegas stupidity. So yeah, we know they've done these things because they were charged with crimes, or otherwise 'fessed up. Kennedy was never charged with more than a misdemeanor, and denied being drunk or having an affair with Kopechne for 40 years.
Of course, the point isn't whether Kennedy did something horrid. It's whether his personal failings (of which there were more than just this one incident) erase all the good stuff he did. For you, Bill, it obviously does, him being (according to you) "nothing but a coward and jerk." That's a real blinkered view of things you've got there.| What an idiotic thing to say just days after "the dude" permanently left the Senate. |
Yet true. |
It's true? People are acting as if the US is going to collapse now that Kennedy is gone for good? Where, Bill? Where is anyone saying anything even close to that except for a couple of Senate Republicans? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 12:19:32 [Permalink]
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"8/27/2009
Ted Kennedy: There Went a Man:
Finally, we must take a measure of the man. Not the person, or the legislator, or the family member. No, the man. Ted Kennedy was more of a man's man than any of the brush-clearing, hick-talking, pick-up driving politicians who overcompensate again and again by faking it. No, Kennedy demonstrated, through all the ups and downs, again and again what a real man is. It is a type of masculinity that we rarely see anymore because it is a fearlessness that few are allowed to embrace.
Put aside the money for a moment. Wealth makes life easier but it does not make one happy and it is not a measure of character. Don't you think that Kennedy would have given away his whole fortune to have his brothers back?
For a man does not shy away from the tragedies of his life. When John was assassinated, Kennedy took up the cause of the civil rights movement as his first major action in the Senate. When Bobby was killed, he began to push even harder against the Vietnam War. When his 12 year-old son, Ted, Jr., had to have a leg amputated to prevent the cancer there from spreading in 1973, Kennedy threw himself into the cause of rights for people with disabilities as much as his sister, Eunice, had, a crusade that would last the rest of his life.
A man fucks up again and again, but he owns his mistakes and learns from them. Ted Kennedy wore his flaws openly in his personal life. Some of it was the price of juvenile overindulgence (even as an adult) and some of it was just stupidity. The question is less about fucking up, but how a man reacts to it. He was kicked out of Harvard for cheating on an exam, so he joined the military (although he would achieve none of the glory of John and Joe, Jr.). When the Chappaquiddick incident happened, he nutted up and told the voters to decide on his fate. He was a hard-drinking son of a bitch who screwed around on his first wife, a Dean Martin-like punchline to jokes about alcoholism and a tabloid laughingstock. During that period, among other things, he was getting funding cut off to Chile because of Pinochet's barbarism, pushing legislation to help political refugees, getting sanctions imposed on apartheid-era South Africa, negotiating with Gorbachev on nuclear missiles, stopping Robert Bork's Supreme Court nomination, and strengthening the Civil Rights Act. What did you do on your years-long bender? He paid, too, with his presidential ambitions dashed. And when he was slugging 'em back like a frat boy with his nephews on a night that ended with William Kennedy Smith arrested on an accusation of rape, Kennedy made another public reckoning about who he was as a man in a speech in October 1991. And despite all he had accomplished before, he grew up, finally, understanding that to be a man one must become a man.
A man works to help those who need help. A real man is a liberal because a real man is unafraid of change and progress and difference. Let us come back to the money. The Kennedy family has always seen wealth as a privilege, a burden, and an opportunity to do good for others. Yes, it is easier to support charities and to have the time to work for various causes. But Kennedy made it his role in government to level the playing field. Where do you wanna go with this? Other than his work that climaxed with the Americans With Disabilities Act, other than his support for civil rights legislation going back to the 1964 act, we could talk about the Ryan White CARE Act, which gave funds to cities hardest hit by the AIDS crisis; we could talk about his intense support for the rights of workers through raising the minimum wage and supporting union goals; we could talk about his work for housing, for education, for women and children, for the Family and Medical Leave Act. We could talk about how he opposed the Iraq War, how he was working to provide educational opportunities to kids in Muslim countries, how he helped end the war in Northern Ireland. We could talk about how he believed, his entire career, that health care for everyone was a right, not a privilege, with COBRA and S-CHIP having been accomplished because of him. He was an unabashed, proud liberal whose full-throated speeches roared in defense of the whole ideology against the ignorance of those who would keep progress from being achieved.
A man is willing to embrace his enemies. Yesterday, Ron Reagan, Jr. had his mother on his radio show to talk about how much the Reagans loved Ted Kennedy. Kennedy and Nancy Reagan were allies on stem cell research funding, but the former first lady talked about how she and her husband were dear friends with Kennedy. Kennedy worked with Orrin Hatch, Richard Lugar, both George Bushes, and anyone he could to accomplish his goals. That's called politics. Compromise was a willingness for both sides to move. When George W. Bush dicked him over on No Child Left Behind funding, Kennedy had to know that a tide had shifted in a way that was going to make the entire process of legislating more rancorous and difficult. The political nature of the nation was moving into entrenchment, which was not how Ted Kennedy functioned.
A man knows how to die. A man understands that the end comes and doesn't desperately cling to every millisecond of life that medical science can squeeze out of him. No, a man dies with his family, in a place he loves, having done much, knowing that there was much still to be done, but accepting that there's only so much one can live."
~~ The Rude Pundit
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 12:36:25 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Innuendo isn't evidence, Bill |
The diver who retrieved the body said he felt the girl could have lived up to 2 hours in the submerged car. You have to assume the girl was alive until you have found a dead body. The diver was pulling the body out of the car 1/2 hour after getting the call. If Kennedy would have stopped at the houses by the crash to call for help it is a very real chance they could have rescued the girl.
He claims a concussion might have caused him to walk by the houses where he could have called for help. But yet he found his way back to the party just fine. He got his friends and made his way back to the crash site OK. He made it back to his hotel OK. He was even OK enough to ask the hotel manager to keep the noise down. He held a perfectly fine conversation with a yacht racer at 7:30 the next morning.
Concussion my eye. This guy was protecting his political career and walked right past houses where he could have called and had a diver there well within the two hour window. That my friend is manslaughter at best and murder at worst.
| Right. If that were the case, then the people in prison that you're whining about would have had to have done lots of public good before they came up on manslaughter charges. Which Kennedy never did, so there's a bit of a problem for you right there. |
Kennedy has done very little up to this point. It's his being a US senator and a Kennedy that gets him off. The years off public service come after this.
It's his legacy in the eyes of Kil and others that seems to over look the manslaughter because of the years of public service.
It was his name and position that kept him out of jail. It was years of dedicated service that restored or preserved the legacy.
What I was saying is there are many in prison who would like a get out of jail free card to be able to go out perform public service to make the manslaughter go away.
| Where is there evidence for this? |
His actions the entire night.
Everybody knows Pete bet on baseball.
Everybody knows OJ slit his wife.
Everybody knows Ted left his girlfriend for dead to save his own hide.
Everyone knows this. This facade that each carries around that it did not happen is a joke |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 08/27/2009 12:39:23 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 13:09:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Concussion my eye. |
Good thing you're here to diagnose the guy 40 years after the fact.| Kennedy has done very little up to this point. |
You're denying reality, now.| It's his legacy in the eyes of Kil and others that seems to over look the manslaughter because of the years of public service. |
No, the question is about you, Bill, making Chappaquiddick his only legacy. You said, Bill, that Chappaquiddick makes him to be "nothing but a coward and a jerk."| It was his name and position that kept him out of jail. It was years of dedicated service that restored or preserved the legacy. |
This flies in the face of reality, Bill.| What I was saying is there are many in prison who would like a get out of jail free card to be able to go out perform public service to make the manslaughter go away. |
And in your denial of reality, you have things backwards.| Where is there evidence for this? |
His actions the entire night. |
Your say-so obviously isn't good enough.| Everybody knows Pete bet on baseball. |
Because he confessed.| Everybody knows OJ slit his wife. |
Because he's paying for it, despite the worst criminal prosecution in my memory.| Everybody knows Ted left his girlfriend for dead to save his own hide. |
Why is it only you who are saying this? Even the most anti-liberal Congresspeople aren't saying this.| Everyone knows this. This facade that each carries around that it did not happen is a joke |
There we go. Bill's famous utter absence of middle ground. One must either agree with Bill that Kennedy "left his girlfriend for dead to save his own hide," or else one is denying that the Chappaquiddick incident even happened. There can be no middle ground in which Kennedy was trying to do a favor for a friend, did something monumentally stupid and more than likely regretted it for the rest of his life.
This sort of black-and-white thinking you're engaging in, Bill, would make more sense if you were trying to defend the memory of Mary Jo Kopechne, but it's clear that you think that she was a slut and her family was despicable. I think it's just your disgust at a liberal being called "a great man" after his death that makes you seek out one flaw and make it the entirety of the man's existence. Just like how nothing about Barney Frank matters except his proclamations about Fannie and Freddie. Just like how nothing about Al Gore matters except his mansion and his ideas about polar bears. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 13:13:34 [Permalink]
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Billy, just listen to yourself. Its comical!
You say Kennedy:
1. Walked by houses he could have used to call for help.
2. Found his way back to a party and GOT HELP.
3. He intentionally let the girl die.
Because a dead girl is so much less damaging to your political career than a girlfriend/affair!
Just how fucking retarded are you?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 14:13:30 [Permalink]
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Nancy Reagan:
I was terribly saddened to hear of the death of Ted Kennedy tonight.
Given our political differences, people are sometimes surprised by how close Ronnie and I have been to the Kennedy family. But Ronnie and Ted could always find common ground, and they had great respect for one another. In recent years, Ted and I found our common ground in stem cell research, and I considered him an ally and a dear friend. I will miss him.
My heart goes out to Vicki and the entire Kennedy family. |
House Minority Leader John Boehner:
The people of Massachusetts and the United States Congress have lost a tireless public servant.
Ted Kennedy was my friend. While there were few political issues on which he and I agreed, our relationship was never disagreeable, and was always marked by good humor, hard work, and a desire to find common ground.
Ted Kennedy was also a friend to inner-city children and teachers. For the better part of the last decade, Ted and I worked together to support struggling Catholic grade schools in inner-city Washington. By helping these schools keep their doors open and helping them retain their committed teachers and faculty, this joint effort made a positive difference in the lives of thousands of inner-city children, who otherwise would have been denied the opportunity for a quality education. It wouldn't have been possible without Senator Kennedy and his genuine desire to give something back to help inner-city students in the city in which he'd served for many years. I'm proud to have worked with Senator Kennedy on this project, and I will dearly miss his friendship and his partnership in this cause.
Debbie and I extend our thoughts and prayers to Vicki and the entire Kennedy family at this difficult time. |
Former President George H.W. Bush :
| While we didn't see eye-to-eye on many political issues through the years, I always respected his steadfast public service - so much so, in fact, that I invited him to my library in 2003 to receive the Bush Award for Excellence in Public Service. Ted Kennedy was a seminal figure in the United States Senate — a leader who answered the call to duty for some 47 years, and whose death closes a remarkable chapter in that body's history. |
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah):
| Many have come before, and many will come after, but Ted Kennedy's name will always be remembered as someone who lived and breathed the United States Senate and the work completed within its chamber. When I first came to the United States Senate I was filled with conservative fire in my belly and an itch to take on any and everyone who stood in my way, including Ted Kennedy. As I began working within the confines of my office I soon found out that while we almost always disagreed on most issues, once in a while we could actually get together and find the common ground, which is essential in passing legislation. |
and then we have the mouth breathing knuckle dragging "republicans".... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/27/2009 14:14:13 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 16:13:04 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | It was a lame explanation and made no sense. In light of the whole story that he was leaving with his girlfriend made much more sense |
No, it doesn't. First of all, "girlfriend" implies a continuous relationship, which their is really really no evidence for. Why does it make no sense for Kennedy to have some consideration for his chauffeur? You insist on making it a scandalous thing that Ted and Mary Jo were in the car together, and that isn't based on any evidence.
| He was obviously under the delusion that he could somehow keep all of this out of the public eye. The drunken affair and the killing. |
He was obviously behaving irrationally and in some serious way "out of it" in the hours after the accident. I don't understand why your explanation of his motivations is any more likely than the explanation that he was under the delusion that he hadn't just accidentally caused the demise of an acquaintance.
I just love how in order to force your interpretation of the events to work you have to say that Kennedy was under a delusion. Yes, if he were doing evil plotting to cover it up, that would have been delusional since he wasn't doing anything to hide the car and her body, and in fact went and told his friends, creating witnesses. If he was delusions - which he clearly was - why does he have to be delusional in a psychotically selfish way, and not in a normal human way?
Have you ever known anyone who was the driver in an accident which resulted in deaths? One of my roomates in college would have these weird emotional boughts where she'd get all cryptic and neurotic. I mentioned this to my father and he (a journalist) thought to do a search of her name in news stories from her home town, and he found out that over a year previously she had been the driver in a car wreck where one of her classmates was killed. She wasn't drunk nor was she doing any improper, but she still was in some responsible for the death of someone she knew, and that really messed with her even over a year later.
Like I said before, this sort of incident would mess with anyone, and Kennedy also had a concussion. So your explanation of his motivations are pure speculation based on nothing but your own personal biases. You want an answer where there is none. Nobody alive today knows all the details of what happened that night, and in fact, it is perfectly possible that Kennedy himself couldn't accurately recall the events. It is pretty common for people involved in accidents to have empty spots in their memory or to have false memories.
| Obviously he was hoping for a miracle and that she would still be alive when he and his friends returned, or the next morning. His whole plot from the beginning was based on keeping this from reaching the cops. He was a desperate man with much to loose. |
I agree with the first and third sentences here. It does seem that his mental state in the hours after the accident caused him to be in some sort of denial about what had happened. And he did have much to loose - an acquaintance who had been a devoted employee of his recently-deceased brother. I imagine he was pushing away a great deal of anguish. But to assume that his entire motivation was keeping this from the cops is just foolish. Bill, how are Kennedy's actions any different from a person having a heart attack who goes into desperate denial and refuses to go to the hospital? You assume that Kennedy feared the scandal that calling the cops would result in, but he just as easily could have been afraid to face the simple reality of what had happened and how truly horrible it was.
| Either way his delusion caused him to him to somehow believe that this was all, somehow, someway, going to go away. I am sure him being a Kennedy and all propelled this delusion. |
That's just stupid, and again you reveal the personal bias you have which leads you to these unfounded conclusions. People who are obviously ill avoid getting treatment all the time out of fear and the delusional hope that the problem will just go away. And none of them have the last name "Kennedy."
| He is one of the Princes of Camelot. He could piss on them and they would vote for him. |
This is based on what? George Bush lost the first time he ran for political office, and he's from a well-known political family. Hillary Clinton is married to a pretty popular ex-president, and she still lost to a newbie, black Senator who rose up from the working class. Also, there are Kennedys who have run for office and lost. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 16:54:41 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: | What I was saying is there are many in prison who would like a get out of jail free card to be able to go out perform public service to make the manslaughter go away. |
No, that's not what you are saying. You have repeatedly insisted that we primarily remember Ted Kennedy as a callous killer based on speculations and bias against him for being from a wealth and well-known family.
Since you brought up people in prisons - I'm a big believer in prisoner reform and giving career training an treatment to prisoners who show genuine remorse and regret for their transgressions. We don't do enough of that in this country, sadly, and instead often view convicts as "bad people" rather than people who at least at one point did a bad thing. There are plenty of examples of people who committed horrible crimes in their youth - crimes which can actually be proven with solid evidence - who serve their time, and then go on to do very productive and humanitarian activities, often out of regret for their past.
Ted Kennedy displayed a great deal of concern for every day Americans throughout his decades-long political career. Clearly the man was quite capable of real humanitarian feeling, and he was smart and charismatic enough to get a lot done. For that, America was quite lucky to have him in the Senate all those years. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 17:04:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Bill wrote: | He was a desperate man with much to loose. |
And he did have much to loose... |
Sorry, this is one of those common misspellings that impels me to comment. Loose rhymes with moose and noose and caboose. Kennedy had much to lose. Saying he had much to loose sounds like he needed to take a mean shit.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 17:05:05 [Permalink]
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Boy, I'm really glad Bill turned this conversation into such a big deal. Mostly because of my age I suppose (and the fact that I don't live in a state which he represented), I didn't know or care much about Ted Kennedy at all. And honestly, previous to his death my impression of him was generally of some rich Senator who I've heard actually is a decent-enough Democrat. This conversation has compelled me to read all sorts of articles about his work in the Senate, and now I actually feel something over the guy's death.
So far this is my favorite article about him: "Ted Kennedy: Bringing the Myth Down to Earth" http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090827/us_time/08599191896800 It doesn't gush about him at all, and it does mention all the bad stuff. It is the best sort of obituary - one which strives to tell the basic truth when commemorating the life of a person. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ted Kennedy has died
