|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 08/26/2009 : 14:28:50 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
And by the way, he did confess to being drunk and leaving the scene and he was convicted for those crimes. |
No, he plead guilty to "leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury." And the MRMV suspended his license for 16 months because they couldn't rule Kennedy blameless. But he never confessed to being drunk, nor was he charged with it, nor did the DA or any judge ever make a big deal out of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
 |
|
|
Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 14:47:49 [Permalink]
|
I voted against Kennedy since I was able to vote. My reasons were never included Chappy.
Gonna miss him though, he was the my Senator from MY STATE.!! |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 14:58:15 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
But he never confessed to being drunk, nor was he charged with it, nor did the DA or any judge ever make a big deal out of it.
|
Were there even laws against drunk driving 40 years ago?
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/26/2009 14:58:26 |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 15:06:58 [Permalink]
|
Kil wrote: | Here's what's going to happen now. I must go to work. Dave or someone else will take you on, beat the crap out of you, and you will run, like you always do, because you're a coward and a jerk. And you have never shown those particular attributes more than in this thread, so far. |
So how long do we wait for this prediction to be declared as coming true?
Humbert wrote: | Were there even laws against drunk driving 40 years ago? |
Apparently yes, but they weren't as harsh and it wasn't considered the big deal it is considered today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_(United_States) The first jurisdiction in the United States of America to adopt laws against drunk driving was New York in 1910, with California and others following. Early laws simply prohibited driving while intoxicated, requiring proof of a state of intoxication with no specific definition of what level of inebriation qualified.[9] The first generally-accepted legal limit for blood alcohol concentration (BAC) was 0.15.[citation needed]
In 1938, the American Medical Association created a "Committee to Study Problems of Motor Vehicle Accidents". At the same time, the National Safety Council set up a "Committee on Tests for Intoxication".
In the US, most of the laws and penalties were greatly enhanced starting in the late 1970s, and through the 1990s, largely due to pressure from groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) and Students Against Driving Drunk (SADD) and leaders like Candy Lightner. Most significantly, zero tolerance laws were enacted which criminalized driving a vehicle with 0.01 or 0.02 BAC for drivers under 21. |
|
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/26/2009 15:07:20 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 16:19:27 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
Bill:
Cowards and jerks carry their manslaughter secrets to the grave. |
If it's a secret, how can you be so sure? And by the way, he did confess to being drunk and leaving the scene and he was convicted for those crimes. But hey...he was a liberal. You don't run here and complain about Dick Cheney's crimes. (Everyone knows he's guilty.) Or any other conservative for that matter. Not a peep out of you.
|
If you want to start a thread praising DC then I will be glad to list his crimes all day long. You are locked in on this dem or pub thing when we need to hold all of these jokers accountable. And yes that even means if they are a Kennedy. No one should be above manslaughter, no one. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 16:22:06 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
No one should be above manslaughter, no one. |
What evidence do you have that the DA did not? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 16:28:03 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
Bill repeatedly states stuff like this: | No, a coward and a jerk is someone who leaves his girlfriend to die in a submerged car because he don't want his wife to find out about his cheating and the police to find out about his drinking. So what if the girl dies the powerful senator is looking at a possible scandal here if this goes public. |
Did you forget that this is a forum for skepticism? Seeing as the incident happened 9 years before I was even born, I wasn't aware of it, so I read the entire Wikipedia article that you, Bill, posted. You have now more than once stated that the woman who died was Kennedy's girlfriend, which was never established. Here's an article about Mary Jo Kopechne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Jo_Kopechne Clearly the woman was ambitious in her career and had been quite close to Robert Kennedy. It makes total sense that both she and Ted Kennedy would be at that reunion party that night, and I fail to see how him offering her a ride proves that they were having an affair. What does it say about your character, Bill, that your malice toward Kennedy compels you to tarnish this woman's reputation post mortem?
Additionally, you refer to Kennedy's action as at least "manslaughter" and at worst "murder" and also refer to him as a "killer." Murder refers to killing with intent. Given the circumstances of the evening, that just doesn't make any goddamn sense. Obviously Kennedy would face more political problems if Kopechne died than had she survived the accident.
The accusation of "manslaughter" is also questionable. If we simply take the facts of the incident at face value, all we know is that a car accident occurred while Kennedy was driving, Kennedy escaped the car as it was submerged, Kopechne did not escape and perished. Of course the most sensible and lawful action in that moment would have been for Kennedy to go right to authorities. Seeing as Kopechne drowned and this is the time before cellphones, I fail to see how Kennedy on foot and with a concussion and other injuries would have prevented the Kopechne's death by going to authorities right away or doing anything else. It sounds like he was living a real nightmare scenario, and it's pretty damn callous of you to assume that the only thing Kennedy was thinking about in those moments was his political reputation. Equally callous to suggest that he even intended to kill Kopechne when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that what-so-ever. A typical human being of healthy psychology would be devastated personally by such an incident. Why do you assume that Kennedy is not typical in this respect? Do you honestly think that Kennedy had ideas about somehow covering up the entire incident? He'd have to be a moron to seriously entertain such thoughts, much less act on them. The simpler and more believable explanation is that he was acting irrationally because of his injuries and being in a state of distress.
|
The dude walked by all kinds of houses on his way away from the crime sceene:
"In addition to the working telephone at the Lawrence Cottage, according to one commentator, his route back to the cottage would have taken him past four houses from which he could have telephoned and summoned help; however, he did not do so. The first of those houses, referred to as "Dike House", was only 150 yards away from the bridge, and was occupied by Sylvia Malm and her family at the time of the incident. Malm later stated that she had left a light on at the residence when she retired for that evening.[9]"
Just one in a zillion odd things that happened that night that sugjest that Kennedy was nothing but powerful politican who saw all his power at risk that night and he tried to protect himself, and screw the girlfriend, from the very begining. And then he walked, (no pun) becasue the state suspended his DL for a year and half as punishment for killing the gal and not reporting it. Nice guy this TK.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 16:59:54 [Permalink]
|
Dave wrote: | What evidence do you have that the DA did not? |
Yes, I'd like to know this too.
Ricky wrote: | The level of evidence you have offered is inversely proportional to your conviction. Marf has already commented on how a state of mind can change, to which you have offered no rebuttal, mainly because there isn't one. |
Yes. Your entire argument is based on the fact that he didn't go run to the cops immediately after it happened. Kennedy plead guilty and was convicted of exactly that. That's not manslaughter or murder, so you are still throwing out accusations without any proof.
Bill wrote: | Just one in a zillion odd things that happened that night that sugjest that Kennedy was nothing but powerful politican who saw all his power at risk that night and he tried to protect himself, and screw the girlfriend, from the very begining. And then he walked, (no pun) becasue the state suspended his DL for a year and half as punishment for killing the gal and not reporting it. Nice guy this TK. |
One in a zillion, huh? How about you name a few more, since this particular odd thing has already been addressed as not all that odd considering that Kennedy had a concussion and was likely in a state of extreme distress.
You persist in referring to Mary Jo as his "girlfriend" when there is zero evidence of them having any kind of affair and a perfectly innocent explanation for why he would have been giving her a ride. Again, if you care so much about this victim, why do you persist in tarnishing her good reputation post mordem? You also have referred to her as a "girl" and "gal." She was a 29 year old, college-educated career woman thank you very much.
Your arguments beyond what was legally prosecuted and openly admitted forty years ago by Ted Kennedy himself are nothing but speculation and bias. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 08/26/2009 17:01:25 |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 17:51:07 [Permalink]
|
Bill wrote: | If you want to start a thread praising DC then I will be glad to list his crimes all day long. You are locked in on this dem or pub thing when we need to hold all of these jokers accountable. And yes that even means if they are a Kennedy. No one should be above manslaughter, no one. |
I would think the thread is open to anything about the life and work of Ted Kennedy given the significant impact he had on American politics in his lifetime. People are getting annoyed with you, Bill, because you are dismissing point they have made about his political works and service because of an entirely unrelated event in his personal life. Nobody here has claimed that Kennedy was flawless, and people immediately conceded that the actions Kennedy took immediately after the accident were not appropriate (although they clearly did not contribute further to her death since she died of drowning - not exactly something which happens slowly. If he couldn't get her out of that car right away, no authorities he might have called were going to be able to get there in time to save her.)
But this one incident from his life is decades old and doesn't take away from his political accomplishments. People are bringing up Bush, Cheney, and the war because those were horrible things they did as part of their political careers. Those were things that screwed over the American people they were supposed to be serving. Kennedy definitely had a bumpy personal life, but he wasn't a killer and he was one hell of a Senator. Just because someone is a politician doesn't make them a scumbag.
Filthy's right. You are just a one trick pony. If you have anything to criticize about Kennedy's career as a Senator, which is what is being praised on this thread, please bring it to the table. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 18:08:53 [Permalink]
|
I keep telling you guys, billy here is one of those asshats that works for some super-duper-"con"servative-liar-for-jebus organization.
He pops in only when something triggers him, events that his masters pick for him (Obama's election, Kennedy's death, etc), and he comes in with a post filled with certain key words. In this instance it's "Kennedy" "manslaughter" "coward" (just read his posts and see the repeating elements). All that helps create associations in a google search between those words.
Billy will stick around for a little while most times too. He never actually cogently defends his accusations, he just makes more posts with his key words repeating himself a few more times.
There is probably an army of trolls like billy out there, all lying for jebus and hyper-conservatism.
Of course, I could be wrong. That means that Billy is really as ignorant as he appears to be though.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 18:27:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Bill scott
The dude walked by all kinds of houses on his way away from the crime sceene: |
Your own source says that the dude said that his doctors said he'd had a concussion and was in shock. The dude said his own conduct didn't make sense to him.| Just one in a zillion odd things that happened that night that sugjest... |
So all you have is conjecture based on innuendo, and no actual evidence.| ...that Kennedy was nothing but powerful politican who saw all his power at risk that night and he tried to protect himself, and screw the girlfriend, from the very begining. |
Do you have any evidence that she was his girlfriend (using the implied definition)?| And then he walked, (no pun) becasue the state suspended his DL for a year and half as punishment for killing the gal and not reporting it. |
The MRMV didn't even have its hearing until after the inquest and the grand jury session. And he'd already plead guilty to another charge, and the DA had said there wasn't enough evidence to make more-serious charges stick.You mean, "nice guy that DA and those judges." You should really read the sources you cite. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2009 : 18:32:09 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
He pops in only when something triggers him, events that his masters pick for him (Obama's election, Kennedy's death, etc), and he comes in with a post filled with certain key words. In this instance it's "Kennedy" "manslaughter" "coward" (just read his posts and see the repeating elements). All that helps create associations in a google search between those words. |
I know one can create news-alert thing-a-ma-gigs online that will trigger on keywords you provide and send you email or texts linking to the stuff it found. Could Bill have found one of those that you can stick any old URL into (like the SFN's), and then programmed it with, say, "al gore," "barney frank," "global warming," "liberalism," etc? That'd be rich. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2009 : 03:25:14 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
He pops in only when something triggers him, events that his masters pick for him (Obama's election, Kennedy's death, etc), and he comes in with a post filled with certain key words. In this instance it's "Kennedy" "manslaughter" "coward" (just read his posts and see the repeating elements). All that helps create associations in a google search between those words. |
I know one can create news-alert thing-a-ma-gigs online that will trigger on keywords you provide and send you email or texts linking to the stuff it found. Could Bill have found one of those that you can stick any old URL into (like the SFN's), and then programmed it with, say, "al gore," "barney frank," "global warming," "liberalism," etc? That'd be rich.
|
I declare, I think you've got it! I'm not going to bother, but if one should research Bill's history in these fora, one'd find that he has a quite limited number of topics he'll discuss. I don't have any problem with that, really, but he does it using largely one-line arguments and what I like to think of as "suffering from broken-record syndrome," as we have seen yet again in this thread.
We all love it when some big shot or other proves he's only human. I remember when the accident, and it was an accident, not any degree of murder, happened the glee with which the news was broadcast and received. Few much gave a rat's ass about Mary Jo, no. It was all about a Kennedy going down and the prediction was that his career in politics was was even deader than she was. So it comes as no surprise that Bill, among many others, digs up her bones to try and again tarnish a Kennedy. Who, I remind, is now dead as well and pretty much beyond that sort of thing.
History will tell the tale and I think that the Chappaquiddick incident will be merely a tragic footnote in the life of an extraordinary man.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 08/27/2009 04:44:10 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2009 : 05:21:26 [Permalink]
|
" Kennedy then requested the keys to his car from his chauffeur, Crimmins. Asked why he did not have his chauffeur drive them both, Kennedy explained that Crimmins along with some other guests "were concluding their meal, enjoying the fellowship and it didn't appear to me necessary to require him to bring me back to Edgartown".[4]
1. Why did he not use his driver? Maybe he would ruin the mood of the moment for Ted and Mary Jo?
Kopechne told no one that she was leaving with Kennedy, and left her purse and hotel key at the party.[5]
2. If she did not come with Kennedy why would she not tell anybody she was leaving? And why would she leave her purse and hotel key behind? Maybe Kennedy forced her to leave or she was coerced. Or maybe they just wanted some alone time.
"Christopher "Huck" Look was a deputy sheriff working as a special police officer at the Edgartown regatta dance that night. At 12:30 am he left the dance, crossed over to Chappaquiddick in the yacht club's launch, got into his parked car and drove home. He testified that between 12:30 and 12:45 am he had seen a dark car containing a man driving and a woman in the front seat approaching the intersection with Dike Road. The car had gone first onto the private Cemetery Road and stopped there. Thinking that the occupants of the car might be lost, Look had gotten out of his car and walked towards it. When he was 25 to 30 feet away, the car started backing up towards him. When Look called out to offer his help, the car took off down Dike Road in a cloud of dust.[6] Look recalled that the car's license plate began with an "L" and contained the number "7" twice, both details true of Kennedy's 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88."
3. Yep, looking for lover's lane. But as a married and powerful US senator he could not be caught drunk at lover's lane with, well, his lover, so he bolted like greased lighting.
"In addition to the working telephone at the Lawrence Cottage, according to one commentator, his route back to the cottage would have taken him past four houses from which he could have telephoned and summoned help; however, he did not do so.[9] The first of those houses, referred to as "Dike House", was only 150 yards away from the bridge, and was occupied by Sylvia Malm and her family at the time of the incident. Malm later stated that she had left a light on at the residence when she retired for that evening.[10]"
4. He is already in damage control mode. He has no idea if she is alive or dead when he walks past the houses at the accident site where he could have called for help. He has already placed his political career as more important then this girls life.
"According to Kennedy's testimony, Gargan and party co-host Paul Markham then returned to the pond with Kennedy to try to rescue Kopechne. Both of the other men also tried to dive into the water and rescue Kopechne multiple times.[1] When their efforts to rescue Kopechne failed, Kennedy testified, Gargan and Markham drove with Kennedy to the ferry landing, both insisting multiple times that the accident had to be reported to the authorities.[11]"
5. Kennedy goes past houses where he could have called for help to go get his friends to try and rescue Mary Jo because going to these houses would have got the cops involved. Plus it shows that he had no idea if she was alive or dead when he decided to walk past the houses and go back to the party. He went back later with his friends thinking she may still be alive.
"Back at his hotel, Kennedy complained at 2:55 am to the hotel owner that he had been awoken by a noisy party.[3] By 7:30 am the next morning he was talking "casually" to the winner of the previous day's sailing race, with no indication that anything was amiss.[3]"
6. Boy this guy obviously is very concerned about his girlfriends well being. Um, not!
Ted: Excuse me hotel manager but I was tring to sleep last night and it was toooo noisey. You know I am a Kennedy don't you?
Wow, what a jerk. And a coward.
"At 8 a.m., Gargan and Markham joined Kennedy at his hotel where they had a "heated conversation." According to Kennedy's testimony, the two men asked why he hadn't reported the accident. Kennedy responded by telling them "about my own thoughts and feelings as I swam across that channel ... that somehow when they arrived in the morning that they were going to say that Mary Jo was still alive".[14] The three men subsequently crossed back to Chappaquiddick Island on the ferry, where Kennedy made a series of phone calls from a payphone by the crossing to his friends for advice; he again did not report the accident to authorities.[3]"
7. In his desperation to save himself he has delusioned himself to think there must be someway he can get through this without it going public.
"Earlier that morning, two amateur fishermen had seen the overturned car in the water and notified the inhabitants of the cottage nearest to the pond, who called the authorities at around 8:20 am.[15] A diver was sent down and discovered Kopechne's body at around 8:45 am.[16] The diver, John Farrar, later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air bubble, and concluded that
“ Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car.[9] ”
Farrar believed that Kopechne "lived for at least two hours down there."[17] "
8. More proof that had Kennedy just reported the accident right away this girl could be alive today. But of course that would have meant that Kennedy's political carrer would have taken a big hit. So Kennedy decided his political carreer was more valuable to him then his girlfriend's life.
"Police checked the car's license plate and saw that it was registered to Kennedy.[1] When Kennedy, still at the pay phone by the ferry crossing, saw that the body had been discovered, he crossed back to Edgartown and went to the police station; Gargan simultaneously went to the hotel where the Boiler Room Girls were staying to inform them about the incident.[3]"
9. He knows now that the jig was up. Time to start operation damage control.
At 10 am Kennedy entered the police station in Edgartown, made a couple of phone calls, then dictated a statement to his aide Paul Markham, which was then given to the police. The statement ran as follows:
“ On July 18, 1969, at approximately 11:15 p.m. in Chappaquiddick, Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, I was driving my car on Main Street on my way to get the ferry back to Edgartown. I was unfamiliar with the road and turned right onto Dike Road, instead of bearing hard left on Main Street. After proceeding for approximately one-half mile on Dike Road I descended a hill and came upon a narrow bridge. The car went off the side of the bridge. There was one passenger with me, one Miss Mary [Kopechne],[18] a former secretary of my brother Sen. Robert Kennedy. The car turned over and sank into the water and landed with the roof resting on the bottom. I attempted to open the door and the window of the car but have no recollection of how I got out of the car. I came to the surface and then repeatedly dove down to the car in an attempt to see if the passenger was still in the car. I was unsuccessful in the attempt. I was exhausted and in a state of shock. I recall walking back to where my friends were eating. There was a car parked in front of the cottage and I climbed into the backseat. I then asked for someone to bring me back to Edgartown. I remember walking around for a period and then going back to my hotel room. When I fully realized what had happened this morning, I immediately contacted the police.[19]
10. After time to sober up he finally owns up by having a prepared statement read, just as OJ did.
Under Massachusetts law Boyle, having found "probable cause" that Kennedy had committed a crime, could have issued a warrant for his arrest, but he did not do so.[33] District Attorney Dinis chose not to pursue Kennedy for manslaughter, despite Judge Boyle's conclusions.
11. Really, no manslaughter charges despite the conclusions? It's almost as if him being a powerful US senator and a Kennedy got some strings pulled for him.
Obviously this dude did not deserve to go back to the US senate but rather deserved to go to jail. Like I said if "dedicated public service" is all that is needed for manslaughter to be swept under the rug I am sure the prisons are full of manslaughter convections who want their shot at doing some public service in trade for the incident to be swept under the rug.
If you guys want to sing this guys praises then you do so with the blood of Mary Jo on your hands. Me, I find him to be nothing but a coward and jerk who put his political career ahead of the life of his girlfriend. As if the US would just cease to exist if TK were not in the senate. *sigh*
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
| Edited by - Bill scott on 08/27/2009 07:14:06 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Ted Kennedy has died
