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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2009 : 21:27:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you think these wars are criminal and immoral then oaths that supposedly would cause one to continue to support these crimes would of course be meaningless.
What to do about it is another matter. Tim, did you think these people didn't understand there were laws (immoral and illegal as those laws might be) against this kind of activity?
Since you are "disturbed" would you think this is an effective action if the goal is to make sure service members are disturbed enough to become informed on this issue? What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan?
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People in the military all have the right to become conscientious objectors. |
Only in theory. The military can sit upon applications for "CO" status. A year and a half after I'd filed my own such application with the Navy, my tour of active duty was over, and still no action had been taken, not a whisper. That was 1965-1967. Are you saying you know things are better now?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 23:30:36 [Permalink]
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I'm saying that you can join as an objector. I don't know how long it takes to get that status if you don't start with it though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 23:49:08 [Permalink]
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Dave_W asked:
| Is Dude correct that an order to deploy is never illegal? |
I'm reasonably confident this is accurate. An individual soldier's responsibility to not obey illegal orders is laid out pretty well in the Law of Land Warfare.
At higher levels of command things are probably more nuanced. I don't really know when it is OK for a ship captain, for example, to disobey orders to move his ship, or for an army general to disobey orders to deploy a regiment.
But when a private gets an order to get on the plane to go to Iraq, that is not an illegal order. If he gets an order to shoot at unarmed civilians once he gets to Iraq, well, that is probably going to be illegal.
I know Gorgo wants to use the UN treaty as some blanket law that makes any and all armed conflict illegal, and somehow extend that down to every member of the military, and accuse them all of violating the law by participating in any armed conflict. No reasonable person reads the UN treaty and sees that though, including most legal scholars of any political affiliation.
EDITED TO ADD:
I do know that a commander can be held accountable (tried for war crimes) if he/she knowingly allows, orders, or encourages troops under their command to commit war crimes.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 09/14/2009 23:59:38 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 00:20:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I'm saying that you can join as an objector. I don't know how long it takes to get that status if you don't start with it though.
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Yeah, CO status seems to come easy for people of certain religious groups (Mennonites, for instance) when joining the service, even in times of the draft. During Vietnam, it didn't work at all for serving service members, especially those not members of traditionally pacifist religions.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 01:24:04 [Permalink]
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We can continue to disagree with what we disagree on and still focus on my question.
| What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? |
Dude says CO status, which I'm sure some people are able to do. It's not easy, and it's not open to these people who are happy to be soldiers in wars that they view as being something positive.
What is the reasonable thing to do? You've said that it's not legal to do certain things, but why isn't it right?
We can agree or disagree that certain actions might be illegal, but are they moral if the alternative is to support thugs.
Dude thinks that attempting to keep arms from the troops is immoral, as then you're supporting another group of thugs. These soldiers think that just protesting is not enough. What is effective? What would, assuming that the soldiers are right, be the best course of action.
Certainly they can send pictures and movies around of specific crimes, but most people see that kind of thing as unfortunate and isolated mistakes. I would assume that most people that even know about such things think the justice system of the military takes care of those kinds of things. But that doesn't address the issue of the whole war being an immoral and illegal thing. What do you do if you're a soldier, and you see that you're supporting a thug, that the only mission in Iraq and Afghanistan is to enslave the people, and if enslavement isn't possible, then the goal is impoverish and kill those that resist? We don't need to argue again what is legal and what isn't. Just assume for a moment that they're right. What do you do? Do you keep fighting because you don't want to be disloyal to your comrades and an oath spoken when you were misinformed? Do you join the resistance? What if their agenda sucks? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 01:30:40 [Permalink]
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I know Gorgo wants to use the UN treaty as some blanket law that makes any and all armed conflict illegal, and somehow extend that down to every member of the military, and accuse them all of violating the law by participating in any armed conflict. No reasonable person reads the UN treaty and sees that though, including most legal scholars of any political affiliation.
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C'mon Dude, this is just nonsense. I have stated more than once that the UN treaty does not make all armed conflict illegal. It is Nuremberg that says that following orders is no excuse, and I am aware that Nuremberg did not prosecute low level soldiers just on the basis of following their leaders into a war.
Read the UN Charter and what the lawyers said. Read what Kofi Annan and even Karl Rove said. Bush knew that invading Iraq was illegal under existing law. No "reaonable person" disagrees with that. The point is not that it wasn't illegal, the point was that Bush could change the law unilaterally because the world had changed. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/15/2009 01:33:07 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 12:13:00 [Permalink]
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The course of action, Gorgo, is to elect a congress that will prosecute those who do illegal things.
We, the retarded fucking people, are the real problem here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 14:39:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The course of action, Gorgo, is to elect a congress that will prosecute those who do illegal things.
We, the retarded fucking people, are the real problem here.
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With few exceptions, those people don't work for us. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 16:04:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Dude
The course of action, Gorgo, is to elect a congress that will prosecute those who do illegal things.
We, the retarded fucking people, are the real problem here.
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With few exceptions, those people don't work for us.
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And who's fault is that? I think you just made Dude's point. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 16:59:02 [Permalink]
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And who's fault is that? I think you just made Dude's point.
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I didn't comletely disagree with him, but it's a little like blaming the victim.
It's the media, the schools, the lobbyists and it's the system itself. One dollar one vote. Politicians can mostly afford to ignore us.
I'm not saying to give up, I'm just saying the present system does not allow for the people to have much say. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 09/15/2009 17:00:38 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 18:24:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Certainly they can send pictures and movies around of specific crimes, but most people see that kind of thing as unfortunate and isolated mistakes. I would assume that most people that even know about such things think the justice system of the military takes care of those kinds of things. |
This avoids addressing the target audience for my suggestion, and the fact that what would be presented to them would be nothing less than anti-war propaganda designed to combat the pro-war propaganda techniques being used by the military higher-ups. I mean, I would assume that anyone who set out to do something like I suggested would want to do something that might actually work at changing soldiers' minds, and not something lame and ineffectual as you assume.| But that doesn't address the issue of the whole war being an immoral and illegal thing. What do you do if you're a soldier, and you see that you're supporting a thug, that the only mission in Iraq and Afghanistan is to enslave the people, and if enslavement isn't possible, then the goal is impoverish and kill those that resist? We don't need to argue again what is legal and what isn't. Just assume for a moment that they're right. What do you do? Do you keep fighting because you don't want to be disloyal to your comrades and an oath spoken when you were misinformed? Do you join the resistance? What if their agenda sucks? |
This wasn't the issue. The issue wasn't disloyalty to one's comrades, but disrupting the supply lines that help keep one's comrades alive.
If you don't approve of the wars, you lay down your arms and accept the consequences. You try to get your fellow soldiers to do the same. You try to get people back home to tell their representatives to stop the wars.
You don't do anything that increases the risk to other soldiers' lives without their full, informed consent. And you certainly don't do anything that increases their risk while being completely ineffectual at delivering your message, like the two in the OP. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 19:15:31 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I apologize for not answering your question earlier:
| Tim, did you think these people didn't understand there were laws (immoral and illegal as those laws might be) against this kind of activity? |
I sincerely hope those two are very aware of the potential consequences of their actions. Similarly, if they are arrested for sedition, I hope they accept and understand it is their fault.| Since you are "disturbed" would you think this is an effective action if the goal is to make sure service members are disturbed enough to become informed on this issue? |
Use word of mouth, starting with their fellow Soldiers and Marines. You'd be surprised how well a word-of-mouth campaign can float through the military, especially if it comes from people whose character is trusted.| What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? |
This is a very difficult question, and one I have pondered for many years with nearly as many different courses of action as circumstances I can come up with.Originally posted by Dude
People in the military all have the right to become conscientious objectors. |
HalfMooner's right about this one: It is extremely difficult to become a CO once inside the military. I believe this is intentional. Military life sucks, and it usually sucks the most after they give you that valuable training. It should not be easy for anybody to just claim they've become pacifists to get out of a deployment. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 19:23:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Are any of the examples or training about declarations of war which may or may not violate treaties? Is Dude correct that an order to deploy is never illegal? |
I cannot think of any such examples, and Dude's assessment is also my understanding.| Why isn't the whole book online and searchable? I understand it'd be important for every cadet to have a bound copy to read anywhere, but wouldn't a full, online version be useful, too? |
There are online versions, but they require Navy login information to access; however, bandwidth is somewhat limited on ships at sea. We can't have hundreds of Sailors on the internet at once when we need to be shooting missiles, now can we?
Aside: a "Cadet" is somebody in training to become an officer in the Army or Air Force. The most junior enlisted Navy personnel are called either "Recruit," "Sailor," or (archaic) "Bluejacket." |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 20:06:19 [Permalink]
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http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/main_ucmj.htm
I think this is probably a fairly comprehensive copy of the UCMJ. It is not, however, easily searched for specific information. Have a good read.
I have a fairly good idea of why CO status is difficult to come by once you are in the military...
You sign a contract, you take an oath, you go through (in my case) 13 weeks of boot camp, and you probably have a fairly good idea that joining the military means you are joining a military fighting force. If you are not of a mind to join a fighting force then you have every opportunity not to do so. In the US (since the draft ended) we are an all voluntary fighting force. Therefore, you volunteered to join a military fighting force. How can you, in good conscience, then state after you've been afforded every opportunity not to approach a recruiter, not to willingly sign a contract, not to voluntarily give your oath that you don't really want to fight because you think it is wrong? If it was wrong the day you approached the recruiter, signed the papers, took the oath, why would even bother?
Gorgo, the gentleman in question did not have the wool pulled over his eyes about what he was becoming part of. He knew, if even at a basic level that joining the military meant joining an active fighting force. That means fighting a war if that is what you are ordered to do. That does not mean depriving your 'brothers and sisters in arms' of necessary equipment for their survival in a war zone. If you want out, go UA, take the dishonorable discharge and become an objector, but don't throw someone else under the bus because you volunteered for something that you don't want to be party to. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 00:39:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Trish
I think this is probably a fairly comprehensive copy of the UCMJ. It is not, however, easily searched for specific information. Have a good read. |
The one oft-repeated phrase that I still remember from the UCMJ was, "Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense." That applied to a lot of stuff of interest to enlisted sailors.
I do not recall ever being schooled or trained in a service member's duty to avoid committing war crimes. Maybe other recruits got that, but not me. I went through a special, accelerated two-week training program for reservists called "Submarine Preparatory School" that replaced regular boot camp. (Maybe that subject just got left out of all the stuff the Navy was trying to shove into our heads to make us less dangerous while later serving summer cruises on old diesel-electric submarines.)
We were, when I enlisted in 1962, trained to never tell a captor anything beyond our names, ranks, and serial numbers.
This unrealistically draconian requirement was later relaxed somewhat in the face of the realities of POW experiences during the Vietnam War. John McCain, for instance, said much more, even making propaganda statements. He was forgiven that, as he should have been. Nobody much takes seriously the stilted and absurd filmed statements of POWs who have obviously been knocked about, so they are of little propaganda value. It's also acknowledged that some operation intelligence may even be disclosed under duress, so long as sufficient time has passed to make it very unlikely to be current, useful information.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Interview with Iraq veterans against the wars
