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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2009 : 08:50:07
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Came across this great little video presentation at the
Austin Atheist Community message board just now...
The complaint is that:
A) life arose from nothing
B) life evolves only from other life
C) statement B contradicts statement A.
The video here gives a good explanation than shows how the contradiction can be avoided!!!!
It's a nice video because it has nice music. The music climaxes at a good point too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2009 : 10:35:15 [Permalink]
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| Nice video |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2009 : 11:35:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
A) life arose from nothing
B) life evolves only from other life
C) statement B contradicts statement A.
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Without having watched the video, my initial response is that premise B is faulty.
We know that life evolves from other life, but do we have evidence that it only evolves from other life?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Edited to add:
A nice video indeed.
As I see it, a very plausible explanation for Abiogenesis. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/30/2009 11:47:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 13:39:57 [Permalink]
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Excellent! Thanks! It's all so very simple, isn't it? Ockham too, would approve...
And the bonus is that music alone made it worth the look.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 14:38:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
The complaint is that:
A) life arose from nothing
B) life evolves only from other life
C) statement B contradicts statement A. |
I haven't had time to watch the video, either, but both A and B appear to be incorrect.
Life didn't arise from "nothing," but from systems of molecules that had almost all of the qualities that we attribute to life (reproduction, metabolism, etc.). At least, that's the current scientific hypothesis, whether one is a fan of "RNA world" or any other serious Origin-of-Life scenario.
If any of those hypotheses are true, then premise B is flatly false, and the fact that it contradicts another false premise (A) is utterly meaningless.
Also, if premise A implies going all the way back to the Big Bang, then it's still false, because the entire universe "came from" something, even if we don't know what it is. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 14:52:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If any of those hypotheses are true, then premise B is flatly false, and the fact that it contradicts another false premise (A) is utterly meaningless. |
Premise B can be considered correct if evolution is defined as changes to lifeforms once they already exist (by whatever means). Therefore, life would be considered a prerequisite for evolution, i.e. life evolves only from other life (but it can originate from non-life).
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/30/2009 14:54:17 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 16:45:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Premise B can be considered correct if evolution is defined as changes to lifeforms once they already exist (by whatever means). Therefore, life would be considered a prerequisite for evolution, i.e. life evolves only from other life (but it can originate from non-life). |
Yeah, but evolution isn't defined that way. To have evolution occur, all one needs is an imperfect replicator and a selective environment. Not life. Given that fragments of RNA exhibit differential replication based on external factors like pH and temperature, it's undoubtable that if "RNA world" existed, it evolved to become life.
That's why many biologists consider the "that's abiogenesis, not evolution" to be a non-starter rebuttal to creationist nonsense. Evolution had to occur before biology, when all that existed on Earth was a massive organic chemistry experiment. Current evolution is only different from the pre-biotic evolution in terms of which molecules are mutating, and what "reproductive success" means. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 19:33:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Yeah, but evolution isn't defined that way. To have evolution occur, all one needs is an imperfect replicator and a selective environment. Not life. Given that fragments of RNA exhibit differential replication based on external factors like pH and temperature, it's undoubtable that if "RNA world" existed, it evolved to become life. |
I watched the video, and it does a good job of showing natural selection working on simple proteins encased in lipids. I would agree that this is evolution.
| That's why many biologists consider the "that's abiogenesis, not evolution" to be a non-starter rebuttal to creationist nonsense. |
PZ has said the same thing. Unfortunately, the video begins by making a bold distinction between abiogenesis and evolution (even while later demonstrating natural selection acting on non-living molecules.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/30/2009 19:34:57 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2009 : 20:19:29 [Permalink]
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And then you have morons, like in this brief film, all over the place...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504&feature=related
What a bunch of neaderfucks. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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The Origin of Life, Abiogenesis, Dr. Jack Szostak
