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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2010 : 04:43:50
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Democracy Now's tribute to Howard Zinn
Here's Zinn speaking on the three holy wars, the American Revolution, the American Civil War and World War II.
Zinn worked to make the world a better place.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 08:57:23 [Permalink]
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Zinn was considerably to the left of me. I disagree with some (but not all) of his Marxist-flavored particulars, but I truly agree that there are no "good wars" -- only a very few necessary ones.
I believe this is should be evident regardless of one's politics or nationality, especially to veterans. World War II has a horrible war, but it was just as necessary to fight as it was horrible. To consider that any war, its underlying causes and execution, is sacrosanct and cannot be analyzed is not only nonsense, it's dangerous. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 09:18:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
To consider that any war, its underlying causes and execution, is sacrosanct and cannot be analyzed is not only nonsense, it's dangerous.
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That's the most important thing. Most people stop by saying "Hitler had to be stopped" or "slavery had to be stopped," without considering that there may (or may not) have been other reasons for these wars that we don't discuss (such as American empire building) and there may {or may not} have been other ways to solve problems other than by slaughtering a lot of people and property.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 09:35:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
To consider that any war, its underlying causes and execution, is sacrosanct and cannot be analyzed is not only nonsense, it's dangerous.
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That's the most important thing. Most people stop by saying "Hitler had to be stopped" or "slavery had to be stopped," without considering that there may (or may not) have been other reasons for these wars that we don't discuss (such as American empire building) and there may {or may not} have been other ways to solve problems other than by slaughtering a lot of people and property.
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Agreed. Even where the answers are in the negative (I'm pretty sure Hitler would have been delighted with the US remaining conciliatory as he conquered Europe and beyond), the questions should be asked. Though to a lesser extent than in WWI, WWII was certainly partially a war between arrogant and despotic colonial empires.
The great empires of Britain, Russia, the Netherlands and France (along with the smaller empire of the US in the Philippines) were seized or threatened by Germany, Italy and Japan. Any history that doesn't tell that less attractive part of the tale is a damned lie. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 09:59:05 [Permalink]
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A little more, about the US Civil War. I think Zimm was off base with his idea rethinking whether that war was "worth it." For this reason: The Civil War did not begin as a decision of the Union, but began with war preparations by southern states immediately upon the election of President Lincoln. Lincoln had the war thrust upon him.
I believe the dynamics were such that there was no choice at all involved. I have read some of the legislation passed in southern states, which make clear their tea-party-like paranoia that Lincoln was going to end slavery. The southerners acted "preemptively" with an attack on Ft. Sumter. That was not a battle to stop Union aggression, but to remove existing Union presence. Rather than being a "good," or even "necessary" war, the Civil War was an inevitable conflict.
Edited to add:
Zimm's idea of how slave rebellions might have ended slavery seems to me rather unsavory in its possible implications. Why should the blacks of the South be expected to free themselves from slavery, with the huge casualties and suffering that would have inflicted upon them?
Also, if wars are never "good," neither are revolutions, which are a form of war. Necessary, perhaps, but never good. Even a massive slave rebellion in the South would have been a horror, and would have probably failed horribly without Federal aid, including troops.
Slavery wasn't just a problem for people of African ancestry, but was also perceived by millions of whites both in the North and (admittedly fewer) in the South as an evil. Zimm seems to imply, or at least embrace a possible implication, that slavery might have been better resolved without any action by the north. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/29/2010 10:31:41 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:11:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
A little more, about the US Civil War. I think Zimm was off base with his idea rethinking whether that war was "worth it." For this reason: The Civil War did not begin as a decision of the Union, but began with war preparations by southern states immediately upon the election of President Lincoln. Lincoln had the war thrust upon him.
I believe the dynamics were such that there was no choice at all involved. I have read some of the legislation passed in southern states, which make clear their tea-party-like paranoia that Lincoln was going to end slavery. The southerners acted "preemptively" with an attack on Ft. Sumter. That was not a battle to stop Union aggression, but to remove existing Union presence. Rather than being a "good," or even "necessary" war, the Civil War was an inevitable conflict.
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They would have attacked the North if the North would have allowed secession? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:14:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Even where the answers are in the negative (I'm pretty sure Hitler would have been delighted with the US remaining conciliatory as he conquered Europe and beyond), the questions should be asked. |
You may well be correct in all that you say, but it sounds like you're making the statement that there is no choice other than war and giving up completely.
People fight things without large numbers of people throwing bombs at other large numbers of people. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:34:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Even where the answers are in the negative (I'm pretty sure Hitler would have been delighted with the US remaining conciliatory as he conquered Europe and beyond), the questions should be asked. |
You may well be correct in all that you say, but it sounds like you're making the statement that there is no choice other than war and giving up completely.
People fight things without large numbers of people throwing bombs at other large numbers of people.
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After Czechoslovakia, I believe it was clear that there was no way to settle amicably with Hitler. Sometimes, rarely, bombs must be thrown. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:42:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
After Czechoslovakia, I believe it was clear that there was no way to settle amicably with Hitler. Sometimes, rarely, bombs must be thrown.
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I'd have to read Zinn again, as to what he said about Czechoslovakia, but again, looking at all the forces before and during the war, I still wonder if saying that the two choices that existed were the deaths of millions of people and "settling amicably". |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:47:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
A little more, about the US Civil War. I think Zimm was off base with his idea rethinking whether that war was "worth it." For this reason: The Civil War did not begin as a decision of the Union, but began with war preparations by southern states immediately upon the election of President Lincoln. Lincoln had the war thrust upon him.
I believe the dynamics were such that there was no choice at all involved. I have read some of the legislation passed in southern states, which make clear their tea-party-like paranoia that Lincoln was going to end slavery. The southerners acted "preemptively" with an attack on Ft. Sumter. That was not a battle to stop Union aggression, but to remove existing Union presence. Rather than being a "good," or even "necessary" war, the Civil War was an inevitable conflict.
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They would have attacked the North if the North would have allowed secession? |
They attacked the North despite the fact that the Union was doing nothing to end slavery, and had no plans to do so. Lincoln opposed slavery philosophically, but had no agenda to end it. I think the South essentially went batshit crazy with paranoia and launched a war against its sister states without consideration of the terrible disadvantages they would have in such a conflict.
I'm certainly glad that the United States did not accept secession. As the even white Southerners knew, that was always a non-starter. That's why they attacked first. I think we'd have a much worse America if that had been the case. By now, slavery would probably be dead in the South, but it would remain a apartheid backwater with no citizenship or rights for blacks. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 11:01:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
After Czechoslovakia, I believe it was clear that there was no way to settle amicably with Hitler. Sometimes, rarely, bombs must be thrown.
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I'd have to read Zinn again, as to what he said about Czechoslovakia, but again, looking at all the forces before and during the war, I still wonder if saying that the two choices that existed were the deaths of millions of people and "settling amicably".
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If no resistance at all had been given to Hitler, millions still would have undoubtedly been slaughtered in his bid to wipe out the "inferior races." The numbers, indeed, might have been even worse. Millions of unresisting civilians were schematically slaughtered in Nazi-occupied Europe, Japanese-occupied Asia and Italian-occupied Africa even with the organized resistance of the Soviets, Chinese, Americans and other Allies to hold back their territorial advances.
But Zinn is right in this: It's good to question all of this. He may have been a revisionist historian (which is not to defame him), but he was an honest one, unlike the Holocaust deniers. Like science, history must be open to all honest questions and arguments.
I think I should now step aside for a bit, and encourage others to respond. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/29/2010 11:10:31 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 11:07:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
If no resistance at all had been given to Hitler,
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Well, that's what I thought you said, and I think that's where I think you might want to reconsider your views. There is resistance other than large groups of people mindlessly slaughtering other large groups of people.
Also recognizing that this is 20/20 hindsight, there were probably lots of options years before the war as well.
As long as we simply see this as a fight between Good and Evil and the only weapon Good has is large-scale war, we're stuck and won't be able to learn from it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/29/2010 11:08:32 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 11:14:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by HalfMooner
If no resistance at all had been given to Hitler,
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Well, that's what I thought you said, and I think that's where I think you might want to reconsider your views. There is resistance other than large groups of people mindlessly slaughtering other large groups of people.
Also recognizing that this is 20/20 hindsight, there were probably lots of options years before the war as well.
As long as we simply see this as a fight between Good and Evil and the only weapon Good has is large-scale war, we're stuck and won't be able to learn from it.
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I honestly believe resistance to Hitler should have been even more massive and come sooner than it did. Hitler was the gold standard of evil. (A fact that has gotten every tin-pot dictator and strongman that came after him called "a Hitler.") There was no easier or even practical way of stopping Hitler than total war. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/29/2010 11:55:33 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 13:40:38 [Permalink]
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I was reading Zinn's People's History book and was put off by his use of embellishment. It was good reading though depressing reading, but I guess that prefer my history to be more factual.
Also, I did like reading what he had to say in Progressive magazine even though I didn't necessarily agree with him.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:48:53 [Permalink]
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| NPR gets Horowitz, of all people to comment on Zinn. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2010 : 23:23:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
NPR gets Horowitz, of all people to comment on Zinn.
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Look, I don't fully agree with Zinn, but providing NPR as a forum for Horowitz to spew forth insults that he doesn't even bother to substantiate is obscene. Whatever else Zinn was, he walked his talk and had good humanistic motivations. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Tribute to Howard Zinn
