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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2010 :  08:23:05  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm reading now that Scott Roeder just might cop a plea for the premeditated murder of Dr. Tiller. The slimy douche-bag might get the charge reduced to voluntary manslaughter and pull only five years.

I repeat: Premeditated homicide! That's good for a life sentence and the law has him dead to rights.

Link
In a pretrial hearing Friday, Kansas Judge Warren Wilbert said he might allow the defense to present evidence that Mr. Roeder acted in defense of others -- in this case, fetuses -- whom he believed to be under imminent threat.

---

Judge Wilbert also said he was open to the defense presenting evidence that Mr. Roeder might be guilty not of first-degree murder, which carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison, but of the far lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter, which carries a sentence of about five years.

Anyone want to make a book on his getting the charge reduced? I don't 'cause he just might, and that would be yet another miserable miscarriage of justice that I want no part of. After all, this is Kansas, home of Fred, we're speaking of and the no-choice teabaggers are not exactly broke. They will help their hero.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  07:01:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plea bargaining is the bane of all legal systems, it's only interested in expediency, not justice. We all know the old phrase 'justice delayed is justice denied', but justice speeded up is often no better.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2010 :  07:57:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a job for Dexter...



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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  08:38:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fallout begins:

"Before the first juror is selected or witness called, a decision allowing a confessed killer to argue he believes the slaying of one of the nation's few late-term abortion providers was a justified act aimed at saving unborn children has upended what most expected to be an open-and-shut case.

Some abortion opponents are pleasantly stunned and eager to watch Scott Roeder tell a jury his slaying of Wichita doctor George Tiller was voluntary manslaughter. Tiller's colleagues and abortion rights advocates are outraged and fear the court's actions give a more than tacit approval to further acts of violence.

"This judge has basically announced a death sentence for all of us who help women," said Dr. Warren Hern of Boulder, Colo., a longtime friend of Tiller who also performs late-term abortions. "That is the effect of the ruling."

The facts of the case are not in dispute: On a balmy Sunday morning, Roeder got up from a pew at Wichita's Reformation Lutheran Church at the start of services and walked to the foyer, where Tiller and a fellow usher were chatting around a table. Wordlessly, he pressed the barrel of a .22-caliber handgun to Tiller's forehead and pulled the trigger.

Prosecutors charged Roeder with first-degree murder, and the 51-year-old from Kansas City, Mo., later admitted to reporters and in a court filing that he killed Tiller. The prosecution stands ready with more than 250 prospective witnesses to prove it.

But what had been expected to be a simple trial was altered Friday when Sedgwick County Judge Warren Wilbert decided he would allow Roeder to build a defense case calling for a lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter because he sincerely believed the May 31 slaying would save unborn children.

Kansas law defines voluntary manslaughter as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." A conviction on that charge could bring a prison sentence closer to five years, instead of a life term for first-degree murder.

Prosecutors on Monday challenged the ruling, arguing that such a defense should not be considered because there is no evidence Tiller posed an imminent threat at the time of the killing.

"The State encourages this Court to not be the first to enable a defendant to justify premeditated murder because of an emotionally charged political belief," the prosecution wrote. "Such a ruling has far reaching consequences and would be contrary to Kansas law."

As events unfold inside a Wichita courtroom, the Kansas Supreme Court is considering a challenge from four media outlets, including The Associated Press, over the judge's decision to bar reporters from witnessing jury selection. A hearing is also scheduled for Tuesday afternoon to give the defense time to respond to Wilbert's decision to allow Roeder's voluntary manslaughter defense.

But key questions being asked outside the courtroom in the wake of Wilbert's decision have galvanized both sides of the abortion debate.

Will the judge's decision embolden militant anti-abortion activists and lead to open season on abortion providers? Does the Justice Department plan to file charges against Roeder under federal statutes guaranteeing access to clinics? And what does it portend for the unfolding case itself and the inevitable legal challenges to the nation's abortion laws?

Hern, of Boulder, Colo., said it's irrelevant that Wilbert won't decide until after the defense presents its evidence whether to allow jurors to actually consider a conviction on the lesser charge.

"The damage is done: The judge has agreed to give him a platform," Hern said. "It is an act of incomprehensible stupidity on the part of the judge, but he is carrying out the will of the people of Kansas who are trying to get out of the 19th century."

The Feminist Majority Foundation also denounced the ruling, saying Wilbert essentially was allowing a justifiable homicide defense. The group, which supports abortion rights, urged the Justice Department to file federal charges under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act."


So, is this terrorist scumbag going to walk in a few, if any, years? Could be....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  09:46:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kansas law defines voluntary manslaughter as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." A conviction on that charge could bring a prison sentence closer to five years, instead of a life term for first-degree murder.

And if this defense in applicable in this instance, it would presumsably mean that a religious belief could always get you off the hook for murder.


METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  09:48:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kansas law defines voluntary manslaughter as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." A conviction on that charge could bring a prison sentence closer to five years, instead of a life term for first-degree murder.

And if this defense in applicable in this instance, it would presumsably mean that a religious belief could always get you off the hook for murder.


METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  09:53:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Figures, my 1111101000th, 1750th, 1000th and 3E8th post was a duplicate...


METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  12:09:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Hawks

Kansas law defines voluntary manslaughter as "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." A conviction on that charge could bring a prison sentence closer to five years, instead of a life term for first-degree murder.

And if this defense in applicable in this instance, it would presumsably mean that a religious belief could always get you off the hook for murder.


Yes indeed. Welcome to the Middle Ages, where belief means everything. I wonder; is the esteemed Justice Wilbert a no-choice fundie with a big problem on his hands? Is he having to choose between his conscience and justice?

In any case, I hope the prosecutors have their shit together because in five years time, Roeder could do it again.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  13:48:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Scott Roeder get away with it, then it opens up for anyone who decides to murder Scott Roeder to make the same plea. Since Scott Roeder is a known killer, and we have no reason believe to he won't do it again to other doctors, an abotion proponent could pull a gun on Scott on the same premise.

The door swings both way, and Scott is opening an ugly can of worms on this one. In fact, his own side have more to lose by this: Anti-abortion people seems to be more agressive than pro-abotion... If a rally outside a clinic gets ugly, pulling out a gun to kill a demonstrator in self defence would actually become reasonable.

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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  14:18:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since Scott Roeder is a known killer, and we have no reason believe to he won't do it again to other doctors, an abotion proponent could pull a gun on Scott on the same premise.


Not having a reason to believe someone wouldn't do something is not the same as having evidence they will do it in the future. And knowing they did something in the past is also not evidence they'll do it in the future.

I'm not saying the defense isn't ridiculous, it clearly is, but the scenario you posted is not the same.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  14:30:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't it?
Scott Roeder didn't claim he murdered Tilly because of past abortions, but abortions he was about to perform, some time in the future.
Both Roeder and Tilly "murdered" in the past, and we can reasonably assume both will do it again, given their respective position on abortion (and the fact that Roeder only got a slap on the wrist and is out on the streets again, cheered on by the fanatical anti-abortion crowd).

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  16:33:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's anothet happy, little thought: 5 years is the max and he could get less. Also, if he gets the full 5, he could well and probably would get out early, provided he stays out of trouble in the can. I find it unlikely but not impossible.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  17:17:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

Originally posted by Hawks
And if this defense in applicable in this instance, it would presumsably mean that a religious belief could always get you off the hook for murder.
Yes indeed. Welcome to the Middle Ages, where belief means everything. I wonder; is the esteemed Justice Wilbert a no-choice fundie with a big problem on his hands? Is he having to choose between his conscience and justice?

I think we're all looking forward to the day when Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab invokes the same defense.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend

USA
446 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  18:07:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Paulos23's Homepage Send Paulos23 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This reminds me of the "He needed killing" law in Texas.

Though, a good counter argument to his is that killing the doctor doesn't stop the fetuses from being in danger since the woman who has the (assumed unwanted) fetuses will just go elsewhere to have it removed.

You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  18:54:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both Roeder and Tilly "murdered" in the past, and we can reasonably assume both will do it again, given their respective position on abortion (and the fact that Roeder only got a slap on the wrist and is out on the streets again, cheered on by the fanatical anti-abortion crowd).


A five year jail sentence is not a "slap on the wrist". But it isn't as if Roeder put "Will murder abortion doctor on Friday" on his calendar. On the contrary, it is a reasonable assumption that Dr. Tiller had scheduled abortions on his.

Having committed murder and holding onto a hate of abortion are certainly good reasons to suspect a person. But are they evidence? No.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 01/12/2010 18:55:17
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2010 :  20:31:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think it's unreasonable for the judge to consider that Roeder might have "acted in the defense of others." A defendant should have all the benefit of doubt on his side. But actually accepting a copped plea and a sentence to a mere 5 years (or less) would be a dangerously provocative outrage.

I think/hope the judge in this case will consider that he'd be establishing that murder for God is a much lesser crime than, say, murder for jealousy. I hope he'll reject that phony deal, but I don't object to the judge's considering it.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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