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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2010 :  18:21:14  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
David Brin's essay, Distinguishing Climate "Deniers" From "Skeptics" may be of interest:

"For the most part, those calling themselves "skeptics" are nothing of the kind. More often than not, they are fully-imbibed Deniers, who wallow in anecdotes and faux-partyline talking points, participating in something that is far more insidious and devastating to our civilization than just Energy Company Propaganda." - David Brin

http://www.davidbrin.com/climate2.htm



Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2010 :  19:54:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally written by David Brin

...participating in something that is far more insidious and devastating to our civilization than just Energy Company Propaganda.
Which is one reason why I agree with and support the use of the word "unpatriotic."

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2010 :  21:16:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem with politics is that almost everyone perceives them as being a matter of opinion, based perhaps on ideological grounds. It is simply not the case that scientific phenomena like climate change are matters of opinion or are based in ideology. Climate change, while dragged into politics by some, is not by any stretch of the imagination, a mere political phenomena. it acts independent of how we feel about it. Climate change is not just democrat; it is not just republican; it is not even just American.

This is why I find the use of "unpatriotic" unacceptable. It takes the subject matter from the realm of far-reaching importance it desperately needs to be seen as, and really represents, and turns it into a mere talking point in a speech - a campaign platform. Someone calling himself a scientist referring to denial of climate change as unpatriotic is legitimizing attempts to render it a mere political point. We cannot afford this.

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2010 :  22:06:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
dglas, I've answered you over in the other thread, because it seemed more appropriate (and because I can't move replies between threads).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  03:59:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem is, we've not come up with a generally accepted international equivalent of patriotism. Yes, I agree with Dave that AGW denial is "unpatriotic," just for the part of the damage its doing to the US.

But that's just too provincial a term. Importantly, this denialism has global effect, just as the climate change it denies is global.

We need a new word, or at least an existing one of which I've drawn a blank. "Ungeophilic"? But geophilic refers to organisms that inhabit the soil.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/15/2010 04:00:48
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  05:19:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Patriotism:
n.
A rickety platform for politicos; a bleak refuge for scoundrels; an Uncle Sam suit containing incoherent hyperbole, protecting it from the light.





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 02/15/2010 05:20:37
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  14:33:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brin does bring in patriotism near the end of his essay. After defining his attitudes he rhetorically asks climate scientists:

"Are you satisfied that I am a sincere Skeptic and not one of the drivel-parroting Deniers? Now can some of your atmospheric scientists put on an extended teach-in and answer some inconvenient questions? (Oh, and thanks for the vastly improved weather reports; they show you're smart enough to be able to explain these things to a humble-but-curious fellow citizen, like me.) As I said earlier, when I meet a conservative HGCC skeptic who says all that (and I have), I am all kisses and flowers. And so will be all the atmospheric scientists I know. That kind of statement is logical, patriotic and worthy of respect. It deserves eye-to-eye answers."


His speculations as to the motivations of deniers as well as those who use the term "skeptic" but are deniers nonetheless, is the crux of the essay.

The implication to me is that allowing a catastrophe, be it climate change, terrorist attack, or oil dependence so as to leverage it politically against an opposing party is extremely unpatriotic. To me, political leveraging and co-opting, a long tradition in Washington, seems in recent years to be coming more from the right than the left. Everybody says they want "energy independence" but a political party or oil executives on the outside might do less than their best efforts to achieve it in order to blame the elected administration for failure to achieve it by the next election. Meanwhile, the nation suffers due to a variety of reasons including political leveraging at the expense of people.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  14:39:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, if this is getting too close in topic to the Bill Nye thread we can just go there.

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cantbe323
Suspended

242 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  16:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Climate change, while dragged into politics by some, is not by any stretch of the imagination, a mere political phenomena. it acts independent of how we feel about it. Climate change is not just democrat; it is not just republican; it is not even just American.
>>

Climate change may or may not be a critical problem.. There's just not enough reliable data sources to prove it one way or another. Scientists don't even have a base line world-wide F or C temperature to work with.
Hyping the unproven theory as a crises with no proof that it even exists is unpatriotic and maybe even treasonable.

cantbe323
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cantbe323
Suspended

242 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  16:51:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"For the most part, those calling themselves "skeptics" are nothing of the kind. More often than not, they are fully-imbibed Deniers, who wallow in anecdotes and faux-partyline talking points, participating in something that is far more insidious and devastating to our civilization than just Energy Company Propaganda." - David Brin>>

Global warming is more than just energy company propaganda. It's more like an all-consuming fire spread all over the world... All based on unproven theory...

cantbe323
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cantbe323
Suspended

242 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  16:59:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
those calling themselves "skeptics" are nothing of the kind. More often than not, they are fully-imbibed Deniers, >>

True skeptics usually start out as Deniers and go on from there...

cantbe323
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  17:32:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Link




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  17:43:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323

There's just not enough reliable data sources to prove it one way or another. Scientists don't even have a base line world-wide F or C temperature to work with. Hyping the unproven theory as a crises with no proof that it even exists is unpatriotic and maybe even treasonable.


You're wrong.

Originally posted by cantbe323

Global warming is more than just energy company propaganda. It's more like an all-consuming fire spread all over the world... All based on unproven theory...


You're wrong again.

Originally posted by cantbe323

True skeptics usually start out as Deniers and go on from there...


And once again, you're wrong.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25970 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  17:59:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anytime someone uses a mantra like "unproven theory" as if it were a serious objection to a scientific theory, you can be pretty sure that anything else they say will be wrong and/or irrelevant.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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cantbe323
Suspended

242 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  18:05:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send cantbe323 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by cantbe323

There's just not enough reliable data sources to prove it one way or another. Scientists don't even have a base line world-wide F or C temperature to work with. Hyping the unproven theory as a crises with no proof that it even exists is unpatriotic and maybe even treasonable.


You're wrong.

Originally posted by cantbe323

Global warming is more than just energy company propaganda. It's more like an all-consuming fire spread all over the world... All based on unproven theory...


You're wrong again. >>

Knee-jerk dismissal isn't enough. Tell me what you've got that disputes my post, and we'll debate.

cantbe323
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2010 :  18:06:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another Link




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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