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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2010 : 11:44:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Rudolfo
[Sorry, but Nazis don't get to destroy mass graves and then get a pass to demand such mass graves be produced.]
I infer from this comment that you agree with the OP that there are essentially no mass graves at the Reinhard camps. |
And I infer from your comment that you agree that the Nazis deliberately destroyed mass grave evidence, and that you and other Nazi symps are still doing their job of cover-up.
I'm glad that's settled.
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I would call what dantheman and now his toady, Rudolfo is doing, a misdirection. Create a huge strawman, knock it down and claim victory. It's nothing but a cheap trick because it doesn't at all demonstrate that the holocaust didn't happen, as dantheman claimed. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 12:23:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[But eh, you're just going to ignore this anyways.]
OK, I missed that ... so he did state his intent. Wouldn't have made any difference if he hadn't, you would have correctly figure it out and responded the same way. |
Rules 1 and 4 combined.| Allow me to refocus the thread... |
Rule 4....are there mass graves at any Reinhard camp?
And then, did the Nazis destroy mass graves at Reinhard camps? |
Rule 4.These seem like straightforward rational questions. Hence, one can expect straightforward rational replies |
Rule 4. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/09/2010 : 14:11:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[But eh, you're just going to ignore this anyways.]
OK, I missed that ... so he did state his intent. Wouldn't have made any difference if he hadn't, you would have correctly figure it out and responded the same way.
Allow me to refocus the thread - are there mass graves at any Reinhard camp?
And then, did the Nazis destroy mass graves at Reinhard camps?
These seem like straightforward rational questions. Hence, one can expect straightforward rational replies
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Indeed there were. Now you can wave your hands and squeal about some made-up rule or other. But of course, you won't open the link, will you?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 06:03:27 [Permalink]
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As best I can determine, the 'skeptics' have agreed, or conceded, without agreeing or conceding anything explicitly of course, that there are no mass graves at the Reinhard camps.
However, the 'skeptics' note that this does not disprove the holocaust narrative which states that the mass graves at the Reinhard camps were dug up and the bodies burned. This is indeed the holocaust narrative, and if it is true, then one cannot expect to find mass graves at the camps. We are in complete agreement.
So, the question then is, what evidence is there that the graves, containing hundreds of thousands of bodies, were dug up and the bodies burned? 
Really, the whole idea is so preposterous that the only fitting response is ... well ....
But, wait, maybe I'm wrong. You tell me, what is the evidence for this phenomenon? One tiny shred of evidence? Anything at all?
Wait, wait, don't tell me..... since it's part of the narrative, no evidence is necessary ...... |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/10/2010 07:00:33 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 06:26:03 [Permalink]
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Are you a carousel operator in your day job?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 07:49:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
As best I can determine, the 'skeptics' have agreed, or conceded, without agreeing or conceding anything explicitly of course, that there are no mass graves at the Reinhard camps. |
Rule 4, or just an inability to comprehend English.| However, the 'skeptics' note that this does not disprove the holocaust narrative which states that the mass graves at the Reinhard camps were dug up and the bodies burned. This is indeed the holocaust narrative, and if it is true, then one cannot expect to find mass graves at the camps. We are in complete agreement. |
Wow!| So, the question then is, what evidence is there that the graves, containing hundreds of thousands of bodies, were dug up and the bodies burned? |
Does the Affidavit of Dieter Wisliceny count?29. In November 1942, in Eichmann's office in Berlin, I met Standartenfuehrer Plobel, who was leader of Kommando 1005, which was specially assigned to remove all traces of the final solution (extermination) of the Jewish problem by Einsatz Groups and all other executions. Kommando 1005 operated from at least autumn 1942 to September 1944 and was all this period subordinated to Eichmann. The mission was constituted after it first became apparent that Germany would not be able to hold all the territory occupied in the East and it was considered necessary to remove all traces of the criminal executions that had been committed. While in Berlin in November 1942, Plobel gave a lecture before Eichmann's staff of specialists on the Jewish question from the occupied territories. He spoke of the special incinerators he had personally constructed for use in the work of Kommando 1005. It was their particular assignment to open the graves and remove and cremate the bodies of persons who had been previously executed. Kommando 1005 operated in Russia, Poland and through the Baltic area. I again saw Plobel in Hungary in 1944 and he stated to Eichmann in my presence that the mission of Kommando 1005 had been completed. If not, why not?| Really, the whole idea is so preposterous that the only fitting response is ... well .... |
Rule 4.| But, wait, maybe I'm wrong. |
Yeah, you are.| Wait, wait, don't tell me..... since it's part of the narrative, no evidence is necessary ...... |
Now this is interesting, because it demonstrates neatly how confused you are about what the narrative is and what the evidence for the narrative is. I know you'll just "Rule 1" this paragraph, but if you can't understand the difference between the two, then you'll continue to say things like the above, which looks like you engaging in Rule 4. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 08:49:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Does the Affidavit of Dieter Wisliceny count?29. In November 1942, in Eichmann's office in Berlin, I met Standartenfuehrer Plobel, who was leader of Kommando 1005, which was specially assigned to remove all traces of the final solution (extermination) of the Jewish problem by Einsatz Groups and all other executions. Kommando 1005 operated from at least autumn 1942 to September 1944 and was all this period subordinated to Eichmann. The mission was constituted after it first became apparent that Germany would not be able to hold all the territory occupied in the East and it was considered necessary to remove all traces of the criminal executions that had been committed. While in Berlin in November 1942, Plobel gave a lecture before Eichmann's staff of specialists on the Jewish question from the occupied territories. He spoke of the special incinerators he had personally constructed for use in the work of Kommando 1005. It was their particular assignment to open the graves and remove and cremate the bodies of persons who had been previously executed. Kommando 1005 operated in Russia, Poland and through the Baltic area. I again saw Plobel in Hungary in 1944 and he stated to Eichmann in my presence that the mission of Kommando 1005 had been completed. If not, why not?| Really, the whole idea is so preposterous that the only fitting response is ... well .... |
Rule 4.| But, wait, maybe I'm wrong. |
Yeah, you are.| Wait, wait, don't tell me..... since it's part of the narrative, no evidence is necessary ...... |
Now this is interesting, because it demonstrates neatly how confused you are about what the narrative is and what the evidence for the narrative is. I know you'll just "Rule 1" this paragraph, but if you can't understand the difference between the two, then you'll continue to say things like the above, which looks like you engaging in Rule 4.
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Will wonders never cease . The topic is addressed !
First, we have the alleged digging up and cremation of hundreds of thousands of bodies, and we have no physical evidence whatever to this point. Odd.
Then, we have the testimony of a man on trial for his life. What? He was not on trial, and instead he was testifying as a prosecution witness. Odd.
Here is his affidavit
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Wisliceny.htm
Here is a link to his testimony -
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Wisliceny/atIMT030146.html
I'm looking for the cross, don't see it. Odd.
Going to the zoo today .... will reconvene tomorrow  |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/10/2010 08:52:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2010 : 11:09:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
First, we have the alleged digging up and cremation of hundreds of thousands of bodies, and we have no physical evidence whatever to this point. Odd. |
What sort of physical evidence would you expect to find?| Then, we have the testimony of a man on trial for his life. What? He was not on trial, and instead he was testifying as a prosecution witness. Odd. |
Why is that odd at all? It happens all the time.No comments on it?Well, David Irving warns that that particular copy has been edited. And since the President asks for any other defense questions after "DR. SERVATIUS" and "HERR BABEL" ask defense-type questions, it looks like those were the cross examination. Does Wisliceny even testify about the cover-up? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 06:55:32 [Permalink]
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I've now glanced at the affidavit, and note that it is written in English, and at the end there is a declaration signed by Wisliceny stating that he understands written English, so, he likely signed a statement he couldn't even read. I'm going to discount this for the time being, and look at the testimony.
I have read Wisliceny's testimony. Fascinating stuff. He has exactly zero first hand knowledge of what went on in the camps, and all his statements regarding the camps are based on 'conversations' with Eichmann and Hoess, who apparently like to chat in Berlin about the Jews they'd killed.
He does not comment at all on any aspect of the Reinhard camps.
Let's approach this thing from the outside for a minute. A 'first principles' analysis, as we say in the engineering biz ....
Has it ever occurred in the history of the human race that bodies were dug up and burned? For what purpose? My guess is that it hasn't. So, here we have an alleged event that is not only extraordinary but unprecedented, one of a kind.
Then there are the mechanics of the operation. How could it actually be done? This would have to be the most gruesome project ever undertaken.
Then there is the reality of cremating a body ... to cremate to ashes and bones it takes 2 hours of 2000 deg. F heat.
At least that's what it takes in the real world. However, in the holocaust world it's quite different. We have an 'eyewitness' to the Treblinka cremations, Y. Wiernik, who wrote a book about his experience. Believe it or not this is one of the main primary sources for 'historians' like Raul Hilberg .... and I've read Wiernik's book, which I think is online now ....
So, according to Wiernik, the Jews burned of themselves, that is, no fuel was required to cremate them, and, instead they were burned to PROVIDE heat for the Nazis .... two quotes ...
"It turned out that women burned easier than men. Accordingly, corpses of women were used as kindling for the fires."
"The Germans stood around with satanic smiles on their faces, radiating satisfaction over their foul deeds. They drank toasts with choice liquors, ate, caroused, and enjoyed themselves around the warm fire. Thus, even after death the Jew was of some use ... the heat came from the burning bodies of Jews. The German fiends stood warming themselves, drinking, eating and singing."
This is PRIMARY SOURCE EYEWITNESS evidence, repeatedly cited by 'historians' like Hilberg. Think about it.
Well, that will do for now.
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| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/11/2010 08:39:55 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 08:11:33 [Permalink]
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 08:30:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
I've now glanced at the affidavit, and note that it is written in English, and at the end there is a declaration signed by Wisliceny stating that he understands written English, so, he likely signed a statement he couldn't even read. |
On what data do you assign a probability of greater than 50% to such a hypothesis?| I'm going to discount this for the time being... |
On that lame basis?
All the rest of your post is just a distraction away from the fact that you asked for a smidgen of evidence, and received it, and now just want to discount it because you think (without evidence) that Wisliceny couldn't read English. But I'll play along for the time being....and look at the testimony.
I have read Wisliceny's testimony. Fascinating stuff. He has exactly zero first hand knowledge of what went on in the camps, and all his statements regarding the camps are based on 'conversations' with Eichmann and Hoess, who apparently like to chat in Berlin about the Jews they'd killed. |
And?| He does not comment at all on any aspect of the Reinhard camps. |
That's plainly false:LT. COL. BROOKHART: And what was the ultimate disposition of the Jews sent to Auschwitz from Greece?
WISLICENY: They were without exception destined for the so-called final solution. That's just one example. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent the testimony?| Let's approach this thing from the outside for a minute. A 'first principles' analysis, as we say in the engineering biz .... |
As we've seen, your at-first-glance method of determining truth fails in a lot of cases, where reality is different from first appearances.| Has it ever occurred in the history of the human race that bodies were dug up and burned? For what purpose? My guess is that it hasn't. So, here we have an alleged event that is not only extraordinary but unprecedented, one of a kind. |
Once again, you cannot logically assume that your guesses are true and build a valid argument on that. Besides, the crime itself was unprecedented, so hiding it would have to be, also.| Then there are the mechanics of the operation. How could it actually be done? This would have to be the most gruesome project ever undertaken. |
And? Your incredulity isn't evidence of anything.Then there is the reality of cremating a body ... to cremate to ashes and bones it takes 2 hours of 2000 deg. F heat.
At least that's what it takes in the real world. |
You need to check your facts.| However, in the holocaust world it's quite different. |
Oh?We have an 'eyewitness' to the Treblinka cremations, Y. Wiernik, who wrote a book about his experience. Believe it or not this is one of the main primary sources for 'historians' like Raul Hilberg .... and I've read Wiernik's book, which I think is online now ....
So, according to Wiernik, the Jews burned of themselves, that is, no fuel was required to cremate the, and, instead they were burned to PROVIDE heat for the Nazis .... two quotes ...
"It turned out that women burned easier than men. Accordingly, corpses of women were used as kindling for the fires." |
He was obviously mistaken.| "The Germans stood around with satanic smiles on their faces, radiating satisfaction over their foul deeds. They drank toasts with choice liquors, ate, caroused, and enjoyed themselves around the warm fire. Thus, even after death the Jew was of some use ... the heat came from the burning bodies of Jews. The German fiends stood warming themselves, drinking, eating and singing." |
This quote appears nowhere in Wiernik's book. It's online, so you could have looked it up.| This is PRIMARY SOURCE EYEWITNESS evidence, repeatedly cited by 'historians' like Hilberg. Think about it. |
Being wrong in some details doesn't mean that it's totally unreliable.| Well, that will do for now. |
Yeah, you've succeeded in laying out some major distractions away from the fact that your demands were met, and you didn't have to admit that you might be wrong about the existence of evidence. Pat yourself on the back. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 08:47:31 [Permalink]
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1. Auschwitz is not a Reinhard camp. Wisliceny does not mention the Reinhard camps in his testimony.
2. It takes 2 hours of 2000 deg. F heat to cremate a body to ashes and bone.
3. Weirnik was not mistaken. He was an eyewitness. He is a degenerate liar. His book proves it 50 times over with examples like this one. The trope that Jews burn of themselves, and that women and children burn easier and were hence used to fuel the fire, is a standard holocaust lie. Here you get to see an instance.
3. The quote is accurate, I have the book. If you're looking it's on pg 29, one page after the kindling quote, in my book. The online version was tweaked a bit. You could say a different translation, but I don't think the book was translated, i.e., it was only published in English, hence the changes are deliberate. The one change I'm aware of, if I recall, 'Ivan' in the book tears children 'in half', where in the online version he bashes in their brains. This to accomodate the trial of some poor sap who was convicted and executed as 'Ivan', years before Demjanjuk was tried and sentenced for the same fantasy crime.
[Yeah, you've succeeded in laying out some major distractions away from the fact that your demands were met,]
See the 'evidence', then examine the evidence. This strikes you as an unreasonable distraction Really, you guys are killin me |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 04/11/2010 09:01:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 09:08:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
1. Auschwitz is not a Reinhard camp. Wisliceny does not mention the Reinhard camps in his testimony. |
Shifting the goalposts: the original goal was to find evidence of mass murder, but now you've shifted it to be evidence of mass murder in a Reinhard camp. Using tactics from the denialist playbook doesn't make you more credible.| 2. It takes 2 hours of 2000 deg. F heat to cremate a body to ashes and bone. |
Repeating a falsehood does not make it true.| 3. Weirnik was not mistaken. |
If you assert that he wasn't mistaken, then everything he said was true, and you cannot express your incredulity at what he says. If you assert that he's lying, then talking about his book is nothing more than a distraction away from the OP, and you're a hypocrite.So what?And you're a heroic liar. Get away from the distractions.| His book proves it 50 times over with examples like this one. The trope that Jews burn of themselves, and that women and children burn easier and were hence used to fuel the fire, is a standard holocaust lie. Here you get to see an instance. |
This is the first time I've heard it. More reliable sources indicate that wood was used as a fuel.| 3. The quote is accurate, I have the book. If you're looking it's on pg 29, one page after the kindling quote, in my book. The online version was tweaked a bit. |
So you say. But really, it's just more distraction.
Why don't you present evidence that Wisliceny couldn't read English? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 09:12:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[Yeah, you've succeeded in laying out some major distractions away from the fact that your demands were met,]
See the 'evidence', then examine the evidence. |
Rule 4: you are refusing to examine the evidence on the unsupported basis that Wisliceny couldn't read English.| This strikes you as an unreasonable distraction |
Rule 4: If you're saying that the book is full of lies, then it can't be considered evidence of the Holocaust, now can it?| Really, you guys are killin me |
Rule 1. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2010 : 09:23:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
You could say a different translation, but I don't think the book was translated, i.e., it was only published in English, hence the changes are deliberate. |
The online version claims to be a "VERBATIM TRANSLATION," so far as that goes.| The one change I'm aware of, if I recall, 'Ivan' in the book tears children 'in half', where in the online version he bashes in their brains. |
The online version says this:One of the Germans, a man named Sepp, was a vile and savage beast, who took special delight in torturing children. When he pushed women around and they begged him to stop because they had children with them, he would frequently snatch a child from the woman's arms and either tear the child in half or grab it by the legs, smash its head against a wall and throw the body away. Clearly, Wiernik is an unreliable witness at best. The idea that anyone could tear a child in half is ridiculous. And 'Ivan' is a completely different character.| This to accomodate the trial of some poor sap who was convicted and executed as 'Ivan', years before Demjanjuk was tried and sentenced for the same fantasy crime. |
And it's all irrelevant distractions, since Wiernik obviously can't be trusted to get the details correct. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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A literal Jewish conspiracy
