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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 05:04:46 [Permalink]
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Opinion:
n.
That which enhances conversation with wisdom from ignorance. The best opinions are usually found in saloons at 2:00 AM, and in Congress at any time. ~~ Anon
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 08:21:07 [Permalink]
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bng, the problem you are having is simple. No one is objecting to your listed definitions of opinion, but I am objecting to your use of "in my opinion" to shield a claim of fact from scrutiny.
If you state an opinion, then who fucking cares? But you don't get to make a claim of fact and then walk away from it by further claiming it's just your opinion.
You want to say that Mustangs are cooler than Corvettes, feel free. You want to claim that animal captivity is inherently abusive to animals, then you will need to support that argument.
Saying that vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate is an opinion. Saying that all animal captivity constitutes abuse is not an opinion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 09:38:46 [Permalink]
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Dude:
Saying that all animal captivity constitutes abuse is not an opinion. |
It is if it's properly qualified. But it's also open to challenge and an attempt should be made to support that kind of opinion.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 10:31:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
Saying that all animal captivity constitutes abuse is not an opinion. |
It is if it's properly qualified. But it's also open to challenge and an attempt should be made to support that kind of opinion.
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No.
It isn't an opinion no matter how you "qualify" it. It is a claim of fact and the only qualification is degree of certainty.
Here is an opinion: The word "opinion" and it's concept should be discarded from any serious discussion or debate. It serves only one purpose and that is to let a deceitful person state a conclusion by fiat and then walk away because "it's just their opinion".
Just look at bngbuck here now. He is an obviously educated, literate, and maybe smart guy. But he (his antics with Dave_W aside) is off the deep end trying to defend his claim of fact as a mere opinion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 10:43:38 [Permalink]
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I'm with Dude on this one.
Blue is the best color is my opinion.
But stating that "In my opinion cell phones cause brain cancer", is NOT an opinion. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 11:35:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I will tell you what Opinion is not exclusively, and that is a claim to fact. When you made the statement that "Opinion is a claim to alleged fact", by using the verb "is", you stated in the realis declarative mood, thereby excluding all other possible meanings of the word except the one that you used in your statement. Hence, your statement is defined as meaning: "Opinion is only a statement of fact and nothing else", which is obviously false, because the dictionary defines many different meanings of the word. |
I find it very amusing that your argument is coming down to what the meaning of the word "is" is. This seems to be my chance to come face-to-face with the Bill Clinton defense!
But nevermind that now. Let's instead examine this clear-cut example of quote mining that you've given us. The creationists who quote mine generally have the common decency to insert an ellipsis where they have removed words, but not you, bngbuck. You skip over the word "alleged" as if it weren't even there, drastically changing the obvious intended meaning of the whole sentence. And you've done it in public, for everyone to see.
Once you re-insert the qualifiers (the qualifiers you lied about in the previous thread), I see no substantive difference in meaning between several of your dictionary definitions and what I've said.I said: | ...an opinion is not necessarily a belief... |
and you reply:| Yet no definition you've put forward suggests such a thing |
Except that the dictionary gives many other meanings, especially:Webster:
BELIEF differs from view or opinion in implying a conclusion or set of interrelated conclusions not necessarily formulated by the individual but often constituting a dogma, doctrine, or proposition already formulated prior to the individual's acceptance or adoption of it; it emphasizes the individual's assent to the conclusion or his assurance of its truth <religious beliefs> |
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Then what can I do but re-quote Websters: "2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge..." Hence, the definitions you have supplied are mutually contradictory (since it declares that opinions are both beliefs and not-beliefs), and Webster's invalidates itself as authoritative because it's hopelessly confusing.| It's the possessive tone and idiomatic structure of "in my opinion..." that indicates that a belief is being put forth. |
To begin, I used the possessive adjective "my", so there is little doubt that it is my opinion.
Tone is the use of pitch in language to distinguish lexical or grammatical meaning—that is, to distinguish or inflect words. We are discussing the written word here, not the spoken word. "Tone" may refer to style or manner of approach in speaking or writing, but I ask you to demonstrate how my "style", or manner of approach in using a common expression such as "in my opinion" defines my opinion exclusively as a belief?
Opinion may be a belief, but it is not necessarily so.
In linguistics, idioms are usually defined as figures of speech. When you refer to "idiomatic structure" are you stating that "this is only my opinion of course" or "in my opinion" are figures of speech? If so, I suggest you refer to a grammar textbook. |
Since your opinion cannot literally be in your opinion (it's not a Klein bottle), "in my opinion" has to be a figure of speech.| Neither possession of the opinion nor the written "tone" of its expression confirms that the opinion has to be a belief. It might well be a guess, which is certainly not a belief nor a claim to fact. |
Why would anyone say "in my opinion" when they are guessing? We have other phrases for that, like, "I guess."| What someone thinks of the statistical probability of an ideation being or becoming a fact (being true) has no bearing at all on the actual probability of that event. |
That's exactly correct, which is why "in my opinion, the Sun rises in the West" is still a declaration of belief, even though it's flat-out wrong. My point was that I don't know of anyone (except you, I suppose) who, when they think something is a 50/50 shot, would declare it to be their opinion.| If the matter has never been investigated, then the probability of its truth or falsity is unknown. It is as legitimate to have an opinion that there is a high probability of truth of a statement as to opine that there is a low probability, as long as it is not stated that there is factual evidence to back the opinion. |
All irrelevant to the point I was making.| I have absolutely no problem with the premise that many opinions should be challenged as to their factuality. |
Except when that was done to you, you shrank from the challenge, and demanded that it was only your opinion.| If there is reason for inference of claim to fact in the statement in the rendering of an opinion, have at it! But if the opiner clearly disclaims his opinion as such with appropriate "just", or "only", "mere" or similar diminuitives, even "I do not know this to be a fact, but.....", throwing the big Skeptic artillery at him, "burden of proof", "dishonest", and all the other guns in the armory is useless and pompous, because there are very likely no facts to uncover. |
Well, it was useless and pompous for you to ask that Dude and H. should attack your opinion with only evidence of a high caliber. You did it anyway, and then Dude said, effectively, "no," and you threw the dictionary at him.| The guy may just have an idea that has not grown to a search for evidence yet. The quantification of certainty on a continuum from very little to very high, needs to be addressed before asking for "proof". |
Nobody asked you for anything like "proof." Dude explained that if you want your opinion challenged, you can do it yourself.| And to counsel to abandon all discourse or insist on dropping the idea because there are no facts to support it (yet) is to advocate discussing only completely factual material. If it ain't a fact, we can't talk about it! Damn little invention or discovery would occur if ideas didn't become opinions worthy of discussion even though no evidence yet existed for the validity of the idea. I fully understand the role of observation in forming hypotheses. But simple opinion may precede and/or initiate observation that leads to hypothesis, then possibly theory, rigidly structured testing, finally possibly a high approximation of fact. |
The only thing I disagree with here is that opinions can be formed in an evidenciary vacuum. I see no evidence of that.| Opinion, as we have clearly seen, may be many other things than predicate to observation. It may be belief, guess work, hunch, intuition, god knows what. It is an extremely broad term. And as long as a skeptic recognizes that it does not have to be a claim to truth... |
There is where you are making your number-one mistake. The source of an opinion, how it was formed, be it a wild guess or firmly held dogma, is what is being requested when an opinion is "challenged."...I have no problem with your aversion to someone "hiding" behind it when they strongly imply that their Opinion is backed by fact. When they state in some way.....| Dude, I can no more prove that wild animals are unhappy in captivity than you can demonstrate that they are content...... |
that their opinion cannot be factually substantiated, what is the point in unloading all of the "burden of proof" dogma (Webster 1b) on them? |
In your particular case, it was absolutely fair. You wanted your fuzzy-headed guess to be treated as if it were a scientific conclusion, given the burden of disproof you required. But it's not a skeptic's job to disprove anything but their own ideas.| I have an opinion that electric cars will largely replace gasoline cars in the future. I do not know what the statistical probability of that happening is, nor does anyone else. What does "largely" mean? What does "future" mean? For that matter, what does "electric car" mean? I do not know! I have some guesses, but I can not possibly quantify them into statistics. There are far too many variables! My opinion is based on conjecture, not facts! |
So what? "On what do you base such a claim" would mean, in context, "how did you reach that opinion?" and nothing more.| However I have purchased and will continue to purchase several common stocks based upon my opinion regarding electric cars, which is primarily guesswork. Many investors agree with my opinion. Many more do not, currently, or I would not be buying now. I have absolutely no idea how to quantify my opinion into probability terms, 50/50 is as good as any. But I am betting more money than many folks make in a year on my opinion, which is, at best, a slightly educated guess. So are many millions of other people. If that seems "bizarre" to you, by all means stay out of the stock market! You wouldn't have a chance! |
No, you don't think it's 50/50, or you wouldn't be investing. You think there's a better-than-even chance that you'll get your money back (at least). You can't quantify the odds, but your opinion is obviously that they're better than even. How did you reach such an opinion?I said:
Maybe you better send him a PM and let him know that you picked up his bludgeon and carried it over here! I would, but he has banned me from communicating with him in any manner possible. |
You replied:| Then why have you been doing so? |
Dave, you are truly the gift that just keeps on giving! Because I can! You clearly stated that you would not reply to e-mails or PMs... |
Thank you for admitting that you lied when you said that I had banned you "from communicating with [me] in any manner possible."| ...your totally unfounded animosity toward me... |
You have got to be kidding. Unfounded? Go read your emails from last year again. It was your unprovoked insults to me in those emails which built the foundation of my current animosity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 11:41:47 [Permalink]
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While it's true that one shouldn't hide behind an opinion to ward off challenges and calls for reasons why the opinion is held, or be provided in a debate with good reasons why the opinion holder is just plain wrong, (though support for a stated opinion still falls on the opinion holder, and it's up to the person he is debating with or talking with to decide whether or not to provide reasons why any particular opinion is bogus) an opinion still falls short of a claim to a fact on the continuum leading up to a claim of fact, usually due to either not knowing all of the evidence to support the opinion, or because the evidence is lacking or can't be substantiated as valid enough to support it as a claim of fact.
In other words "In my opinion cell phones cause brain cancer" is an opinion but can be treated like a claim to a fact because the facts are out there.
But statements like "in my opinion animal captivity is abuse" is lower on the scale of what we know to be true, either way, and is a belief that at the very least, requires the person who holds that opinion to explain why they hold it and be ready for a challenge. That becomes a discussion, really. And if the facts are not available for both sides, or studies support both positions, then it remains an opinion on both sides of the debate. Neither side can legitimately present their belief as a fact, so conclusions must be qualified as opinion.
Now I realize that all conclusions are tentative anyway. But stating that something is an opinion suggests a much weaker conclusion than those conclusions that are well supported. And that's where the honesty comes in. It's an acknowledgment that given what you know, you have come to a weak conclusion, subject to debate and correction, and you know it.
I doubt that I'm making myself as clear as I should be but I'm in a hurry. Sorry about that. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 13:38:17 [Permalink]
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"You want to claim that animal captivity is inherently abusive to animals, then you will need to support that argument."
What sort of evidence could be offered to support or refute a claim such as this?
Just asking. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 16:15:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
"You want to claim that animal captivity is inherently abusive to animals, then you will need to support that argument."
What sort of evidence could be offered to support or refute a claim such as this?
Just asking.
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A bit OT for this thread, but:
Perhaps an examination of the general health of captive animals vs those in the wild?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 16:17:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
While it's true that one shouldn't hide behind an opinion to ward off challenges and calls for reasons why the opinion is held, or be provided in a debate with good reasons why the opinion holder is just plain wrong, (though support for a stated opinion still falls on the opinion holder, and it's up to the person he is debating with or talking with to decide whether or not to provide reasons why any particular opinion is bogus) an opinion still falls short of a claim to a fact on the continuum leading up to a claim of fact, usually due to either not knowing all of the evidence to support the opinion, or because the evidence is lacking or can't be substantiated as valid enough to support it as a claim of fact.
In other words "In my opinion cell phones cause brain cancer" is an opinion but can be treated like a claim to a fact because the facts are out there.
But statements like "in my opinion animal captivity is abuse" is lower on the scale of what we know to be true, either way, and is a belief that at the very least, requires the person who holds that opinion to explain why they hold it and be ready for a challenge. That becomes a discussion, really. And if the facts are not available for both sides, or studies support both positions, then it remains an opinion on both sides of the debate. Neither side can legitimately present their belief as a fact, so conclusions must be qualified as opinion.
Now I realize that all conclusions are tentative anyway. But stating that something is an opinion suggests a much weaker conclusion than those conclusions that are well supported. And that's where the honesty comes in. It's an acknowledgment that given what you know, you have come to a weak conclusion, subject to debate and correction, and you know it.
I doubt that I'm making myself as clear as I should be but I'm in a hurry. Sorry about that.
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Kil, you and I have had this argument before. I doubt I will convince you any better than in the past, but any declarative statement that can be objectively evaluated can't be an opinion, no matter how many ways or times a person says it is just an opinion.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 17:28:27 [Permalink]
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Dude:
I doubt I will convince you any better than in the past, but any declarative statement that can be objectively evaluated can't be an opinion, no matter how many ways or times a person says it is just an opinion. |
You're probably right about convincing me.
So you are saying that any statement that can be hypothetically objectively evaluated, even before there is enough supporting evidence to objectively evaluate the statement, and even though the lack of supporting evidence is understood by both sides, and is therefor posited as an opinion, is not an opinion?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 20:20:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
...any declarative statement that can be objectively evaluated can't be an opinion... |
Now I wouldn't say that, either. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 21:45:20 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Let's play by your rules.
I make the statement: | "This is only an opinion, but it is my opinion that confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse" |
You state that: | Your sentence - "confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse" - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact. |
You have made a statement of alleged fact when you state:| "The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact." |
What is your evidence for your statement of alleged fact?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 00:50:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
I doubt I will convince you any better than in the past, but any declarative statement that can be objectively evaluated can't be an opinion, no matter how many ways or times a person says it is just an opinion. |
You're probably right about convincing me.
So you are saying that any statement that can be hypothetically objectively evaluated, even before there is enough supporting evidence to objectively evaluate the statement, and even though the lack of supporting evidence is understood by both sides, and is therefor posited as an opinion, is not an opinion?
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Statements made in the absence of evidence can't actually be objectively evaluated. Technically it's called conjecture.
But seriously, don't strawman me. It's embarrassing because you should know better.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 00:52:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
Let's play by your rules.
I make the statement: | "This is only an opinion, but it is my opinion that confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse" |
You state that: | Your sentence - "confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse" - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact. |
You have made a statement of alleged fact when you state:| "The sentence - confinement of wild animals constitutes abuse - is not an opinion, it is a statement of alleged fact." |
What is your evidence for your statement of alleged fact?
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Your posts where you make the claim. I know you are a crusty old bastard, but really? Did you forget what you posted? Might be time to visit a doc and get that Aricept scipt filled.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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The ‘opinion’ thread
