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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:00:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
LOL. The debate with Dave W. has reached the level of pure unadulterated nonsense. |
I see that you have reached the point at which you have stopped responding to my arguments, and are instead just insulting me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:03:14 [Permalink]
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[But no reply to this. Can I assume, Rudulfo, that you have conceded the point? That is, you have no compelling evidence for your bold assertion?]
Another poster who needs to pay attention. I conceded that we did not know the provenance of the photo in question, and then linked to a similar photo on scrapbookpages.com for which the provenance is known to my satisfaction. I also pointed out that there are numerous similar photos, we've all seen them from day 1, from Dachau and Belsen. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 06:27:01 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:07:36 [Permalink]
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[ you're saying that anywhere we find a sunken ship, we should deduce that the Japanese sank it in a surprise attack?]
One of the standard tactics in holocaust debate is to try to turn it into a game of dumb and dumber. Your comment above is a good example. I do not excel at dumb and dumber, so, don't play. I won't respond to this type of idiocy again.
My standard practice is to ignore idiocy, and respond only to comments that appear to have some merit. For example, Kil's questioning of the percentage of Jews in the camps. Given that you are one of the forum directors, I have tried to respond to your 'questions', most of which I regarded as without merit. I would have continued to play that game if you had responded to my questions, which do have merit. However, you refused to answer a simple, direct, important question about the photo of the 'unaware'. So, I'm reverting to my standard policy. Idiocy will be ignored. If you make any kind of 'argument' that appears to me to have any merit whatever, I will respond. But, no response to comments without merit. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 06:24:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:42:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[Can you document that?]
Yes, of course, and I did. If you watch the video linked, it contains an interview with the director of the Auschwitz museum who admits that the Russians added the chutes. |
No, he doesn't:Dr. Piper: In 1944, in connection with the bombardment of Auschwitz by the Allied forces, [the] empty crematorium number one and gas chamber at Auschwitz were adopted as air [raid] shelters.
At this time, additional walls were built inside the former gas chamber. An additional entrance was made from the east side of the gas chamber and openings in the ceiling, [through which] the gas Zyklon B was discharged [to the] inside, were at the time liquidated.
So after the liberation of the camp, the former gas chamber presented a view of [an] air [raid] shelter. In order to gain an earlier view ...earlier sight...of this object, the inside walls built in 1944 were removed and the openings in the ceiling were made anew.
So now this gas chamber is very similar to this one which existed in 1941-1942, but not all details were made so there is no gas-tight doors, for instance, [and the] additional entrance from the east side rested [remained] as it was made in 1944. Such changes were made after the war in order to gain [the] earlier view of this object.
David Cole: Were the holes in the ceiling put in in the same place?
Piper: Yes, in the same place, because the traces were visible. Only later does David Cole proclaim:The first one, the official view, holds that the Soviets and Poles created a "gas chamber" in an air-raid shelter that had been a gas chamber. The revisionist view holds that the Soviets and Poles created a "gas chamber" in air-raid shelter that had been -- an air raid shelter. So how do we know which one is correct? David Cole is the only one who speaks of Soviets, and for no good reason. Dr. Piper never says "Soviets" or "Russians." Cole should have known that the museum was created and administered by the Poles. And so should you.
And Cole is doing nothing less than accusing Dr. Piper of lying when he (Cole) asserts that the holes in the ceiling were created originally by the Poles.
Plus, you and David Cole seem to have this bizarre idea that museum exhibits are offered as "proof" of the the things they depict. They aren't. They hardly ever are. I've never seen any museum display outside of a science museum that claimed to be proof of anything.
You only wish they were offered as proof, so that you can claim they are fraudulent evidence. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:53:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[ you're saying that anywhere we find a sunken ship, we should deduce that the Japanese sank it in a surprise attack?]
One of the standard tactics in holocaust debate is to try to turn it into a game of dumb and dumber. Your comment above is a good example. I do not excel at dumb and dumber, so, don't play. I won't respond to this type of idiocy again. |
No, you're having massive comprehension problems regarding the concept of evidence, and clearly have a double-standard in which Holocaust evidence is held to not actually be evidence. You are now saying that you outright refuse to enter into a discussion of what "evidence" is, which further cements, in my mind at least, that you really don't know what you're talking about.
In other words, the idiocy isn't mine.| However, you refused to answer a simple, direct, important question about the photo of the 'unaware'. |
That question was logically flawed. When I pointed that you, you did nothing to correct your failure, and instead ridiculed me.| But, no response to comments without merit. |
And since you don't have to explain your standards for "merit," I just call this the "lalalalala-I-can't-hear-you" defense. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:54:52 [Permalink]
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[David Cole is the only one who speaks of Soviets, and for no good reason. Dr. Piper never says "Soviets" or "Russians." Cole should have known that the museum was created and administered by the Poles. And so should you.]
The holes were added after the war, by the Soviets, or the Poles. That's the fact.
Now, the 'gas chamber' was presented as being in it's found state until Cole exposed the hoax. This is easily verified by watching the video.
Now, you were doing well with that post .... until ....
[Plus, you and David Cole seem to have this bizarre idea that museum exhibits are offered as "proof" of the the things they depict. ]
Please, please, stop this idiocy. I can't bring myself to such idiotic quibbling over the meaning of proof and evidence. We all know what proof and evidence mean, you don't need to offer up these 'objections' or whatever they are. Until Cole's expose, the gas chamber was presented as in its found state and therefore evidence and proof of the holocaust narrative. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 06:55:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
One of the standard tactics in holocaust debate is to try to turn it into a game of dumb and dumber. Your comment above is a good example. I do not excel at dumb and dumber, so, don't play. I won't respond to this type of idiocy again.
My standard practice is to ignore idiocy, and respond only to comments that appear to have some merit. For example, Kil's questioning of the percentage of Jews in the camps. Given that you are one of the forum directors, I have tried to respond to your 'questions', most of which I regarded as without merit. I would have continued to play that game if you had responded to my questions, which do have merit. However, you refused to answer a simple, direct, important question about the photo of the 'unaware'. So, I'm reverting to my standard policy. Idiocy will be ignored. If you make any kind of 'argument' that appears to me to have any merit whatever, I will respond. But, no response to comments without merit.
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And another tactic is outright avoidance. For example, in that long response above (as well as most of your other posts in this topic), you've utterly failed in directly answering the questions asked of you.
it appears that you have appointed yourself as the sole arbiter of what constitutes as "merit" on a site of which you are but a visitor. In effect, you are above reproach, your expertise shouldn't be questioned, and it is you (and only you) who deigns what questions are worthy of your attention, and what answers legitimate. Am I incorrect in my evaluation? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 08:04:40 [Permalink]
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Sorry Rudolpho, you've yet to present any sort of a convincing case.
Link
Holocaust Deniers Say:
No holes have ever been found in the roofs of the gas chambers in Cremas 1, 2 and 3 in Auschwitz through which the Zyklon-B was supposedly introduced, therefore there was no mass murder of Jews in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Holocaust deniers claim that if there were no holes in the roofs then the structures could not have been gas chambers and Auschwitz was not an extermination camp. If Auschwitz was not an extermination camp, then the Holocaust did not happen.
"No holes, no Holocaust!" David Irving, whom the High Court in London declared to be a Holocaust denier, racist and antisemite, advanced this slogan as part of his libel accusation against Professor Deborah Lipstadt during David Irving v. Penguin, UK and Deborah Lipstadt in London (2000). During the cross-examination of Professor Robert Jan van Pelt, who wrote the expert witness report on Auschwitz for the trial, Irving asked: "And do you accept . . . that if you were to go to Auschwitz the day after tomorrow with a trowel and clean away the gravel [from the ruins of Cremas 2 or 3] and find a reinforced concrete hole . . . this would make an open and shut case and I would happily abandon my action immediately?"1
Robert Faurisson, a French denier, said about Crema 2 at Birkenau: "The caved-in roof of this supposed mass extermination 'gas chamber' has visibly never had any of the four special holes . . . through which, we are told, Zyklon B pellets were poured in. This being the case, how, simply, could an execution gassing operation have even begun here at Birkenau, the core of the so-called Holocaust'?"2
What are the holes in the roof?
When Heinrich Himmler, the Reichsführer of the SS, ordered that Auschwitz was to become the center of the Final Solution, Cremas 2 and 3 were in the process of being built in Birkenau. In both buildings (which are identical), two existing underground rooms originally designed to be used as morgues were easily adapted to become an undressing room and a gas chamber room.
On the flat roofs of the gas chamber rooms, four holes were chopped in the concrete and a chimney was built over them, which was covered with a gas-tight lid. It was through these holes that the Zyklon-B was dropped into the gas chamber. |
And moving right along.....
Photographic evidence of the existence of the holes in the roofs in the gas chambers in Cremas 2 and 3
In the fall of 1944, Allied planes flew over Auschwitz and on August 25 they captured the cremas and gas chambers at Auschwitz on a reconnaissance film.
The underground gas chambers in Cremas 2 and 3 are visible from the outline of the berm of earth and grass that covered them. The introduction chimneys are clearly visible on the roof as four dark squares staggered side to side down the length of the room.6 You can see this picture at: http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20Aerial/08-25-44%20001.htm.
Holocaust deniers claim that these aerial photos have been tampered with and the black spots on the roof were added later.7 In 1996, experts at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, one of the world leaders of the analysis of aerial and satellite images, examined the negatives carefully. The JPL experts found no evidence of forgery or tampering. The markings on the roof were on the original negative.8
The Germans themselves also documented their construction work around the camp with cameras. In December 1942 they took a picture of the construction work underway on Crema 2. The picture included the roof of the gas chamber room shortly before its completion and before it was covered with dirt and grass. On the flat roof there are clear images of the protruding chimneys over the holes. You can see this picture at: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/intro-columns/.
Further scientific evidence regarding the holes in the roofs of the gas chambers in Cremas 1, 2 and 3:
A properly authorized and rigorously conducted forensic study was done in 2000 by qualified experts. The experts unearthed a photograph of the roof of Crema 1 that clearly shows five holes in the roof which had been resealed after the building was abandoned as a gas chamber and turned into an air raid shelter in late 1944.9 Adam Zlobnicki recalls the restoration of the holes in the roof: "Those who reconstructed them had an easy task because the erstwhile introduction holes and had distinct traces . . . Thus, they constructed in the same places again the openings for the little chimneys."10 The fifth hole was not reopened.
The same study identified the location of three of the four holes in the badly damaged roof of Crema 2. The study found "clear signs of openings; straight cast edges in the concrete of the roof; rebar cut cleanly (i.e., not stretched by the explosion); the absence of rebar in the area within the holes; and the presence of rebar bent inwards at the edges of the holes."11 The fourth hole is partly hidden by a fold in the rubble created by the explosion and only the edge of it can be seen. |
Scientific evidence?
Learning ToolsMyth/Fact Sheetsbibliographic information
print this page
Scientific tests prove the "Gas Chambers" never existed
Holocaust Deniers Say:
Scientific tests prove conclusively that there were never any gas chambers in Auschwitz.
Holocaust Deniers Argue
The claim that objective science proves the non-existence of the Holocaust began with the Leuchter Report. In his introduction to that report, David Irving writes: "Unlike the writing of history, chemistry is an exact science. . . . The truly astounding results are as set out in this report: while significant quantities of cyanide compounds were found in the small de-lousing facilities of the camp . . . no significant trace whatsoever was found in the buildings which international opinion--for it is not more than that--has always labeled the camp's infamous gas chambers . . . Forensic chemistry is, I repeat, an exact science." 1
The Leuchter Report
First published in 1989 and submitted as evidence during the trial of German-Canadian Holocaust denier and neo-Nazi, Ernst Zündel, the Leuchter Report is one of the cornerstones of Holocaust denial. For his trial, Zündel commissioned self-proclaimed execution-chamber specialist Fred Leuchter to conduct a forensic examination of the gas chambers in Auschwitz. Leuchter went to Auschwitz, where without any official permission, he chipped away samples of brick and stone, which he then sent to a forensics laboratory for investigation.
His report concluded that, "There were no execution chambers at any of these locations." He continued by saying that, in his opinion, "the alleged gas chambers at the inspected sites could not have then been, or now, be utilized or seriously considered to function as execution gas chambers." 2
Zündel submitted the Leuchter Report as evidence in his trial and wanted Fred Leuchter to be a witness for his defense. However, when Leuchter was questioned by the court about his credentials as an expert witness it was discovered that he wasn't licensed as an engineer, his degree was in the humanities, and he had no expertise in chemistry, toxicology or incineration--all subjects he had weighed in on in the Report. The court, therefore, did not let the report be entered as the work of an expert. |
So what is it, this Leuchter Report of which we speak? Glad you asked:
entered as the work of an expert.
The Major Falsifications Of The Leuchter Report
•"The exposed porous brick and mortar would accumulate the HCN [hydrogen cyanide] and makes these facilities dangerous to humans for several years." 3
Zyklon-B was the product name for the blue-green chalk pellets soaked in hydrogen cyanide (HCN). In addition to its uses as a powerful pesticide and in other industrial applications, the Nazis used it to administer death in death camp gas chambers.
The walls and ceilings of the gas chambers were plastered and whitewashed as numerous eyewitnesses have testified. By the time Leuchter arrived at the camp to take his samples, the plaster was gone and the exposed brick had been exposed to 40 years of rain, sun and snow. As HCN leaves only a thin blue chemical residue on surfaces, any "Prussian Blue" residue from the HCN would have collected on the surface of the plaster and would not have left a substantial presence on the bricks and mortar or concrete underneath.
Leuchter's Sample Collection Process, Although Touted As "Scientific," Was Deeply Flawed
Leuchter collected 31 handful-sized samples of bricks and mortar from the cremas and one control sample from the delousing chamber in Birkenau. By the time he crawled into the ruins of Crema 2, the plaster was long gone and only the bricks and mortar and concrete remained. Cremas 4 and 5 were constructed entirely of brick. They were totally destroyed before the end of the war. Only the concrete foundations remain and bricks have been gathered from around the area and loosely stacked up to show the general outline of the floor plan of the buildings. The bricks that Leuchter sampled did not necessarily come from anywhere near the gas chamber rooms. |
And so forth. The whole thing is worth a read.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 08:43:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[David Cole is the only one who speaks of Soviets, and for no good reason. Dr. Piper never says "Soviets" or "Russians." Cole should have known that the museum was created and administered by the Poles. And so should you.]
The holes were added after the war, by the Soviets, or the Poles. That's the fact. |
There you go, claiming something as fact which David Cole doesn't even say is a fact.
You're also calling Dr. Piper an outright, unashamed liar. What evidence do you have that he is wrong?| Now, the 'gas chamber' was presented as being in it's found state until Cole exposed the hoax. |
What hoax?[Plus, you and David Cole seem to have this bizarre idea that museum exhibits are offered as "proof" of the the things they depict. ]
Please, please, stop this idiocy. I can't bring myself to such idiotic quibbling over the meaning of proof and evidence. We all know what proof and evidence mean, you don't need to offer up these 'objections' or whatever they are. Until Cole's expose, the gas chamber was presented as in its found state and therefore evidence and proof of the holocaust narrative. |
And that's utter baloney. You have presented no evidence whatsoever that "the gas chamber was presented as in its found state." Clearly, that's why Dr. Piper was "very nonchalant" about the whole thing (David Cole's words). Dr. Piper knew it was a reconstruction, and not "in its found state," because according to him, its "found state" was as an air-raid shelter.
You and David Cole are trying to take an illustrative museum exhibit which everyone knows is just an illustrative reconstruction and play semantic and logical games until you declare that the museum personnel were presenting it as proof that the Holocaust occurred. But nowhere in the video does any museum staffer say any such thing, it is only David Cole who claims (out of the blue) that that particular exhibit is being offered as "proof of homicidal gassings."
Look, this isn't offered as proof that Native Americans lived in New England. This isn't offered as proof that Einstein had a messy desk. And this isn't offered as proof that an American flag was raised on Iwo Jima. These (and the Auschwitz gas chamber) are just illustrative of facts for which proof exists elsewhere. Museums don't exist to prove history, they exist to illustrate it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 08:48:27 [Permalink]
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| Dave, you really need to stop clouding the issue with facts. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 09:21:43 [Permalink]
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[And that's utter baloney. You have presented no evidence whatsoever that "the gas chamber was presented as in its found state.]
You have to watch the video. Cole takes a tour with the museum guide. She shows him the 'gas chamber'. He asks her repeatedly if the room is in its original state and she confirms that it is.
That is definitive and irrefutable.
And, you can ask filthy. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 09:24:10 |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 09:26:59 [Permalink]
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[Sorry Rudolpho, you've yet to present any sort of a convincing case. ]
The link is talking about holes in the roofs of Krema II and III, not Krema I, the one I'm talking about. And besides, cutting and pasting doesn't get it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 09:33:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rudolfo
[And that's utter baloney. You have presented no evidence whatsoever that "the gas chamber was presented as in its found state.]
You have to watch the video. Cole takes a tour with the museum guide. She shows him the 'gas chamber'. He asks her repeatedly if the room is in its original state and she confirms that it is.
That is definitive and irrefutable. |
Except that it's not what you said. The difference between the "original" state and the "found" state should be obvious. The chamber was found in its "found state," as an air-raid shelter. The museum reconstructed it in an approximation of its "original state," a fact so mind-numbingly obvious to anyone that Dr. Piper is "nonchalant" about it.
For some reason, you insist that the museum staff are presenting it as "proof" of the Holocaust, when they are doing no such thing (watch the video).
Furthermore, I wouldn't look to tour guides for proof of the Holocaust. Nor would I expect that the average tourist expects to see the exhibits as proof of the Holocaust. Who knows, though? Maybe most of them are like you, and think museums exist to prove that history happened. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 09:36:31 [Permalink]
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I have a question for FRIPP and KIL ....
I don't usually ask questions of individuals, but I now see that it does provide a good way for 'calibrating' other posters .... so I have the following question that is relevant, important, and does not require any research to answer, ......
Have a look at the pictures on the web page ...
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/unaware.html
The question - Do you believe that the photo shows people on their way to a gas chamber? |
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Rudolfo
Banned
124 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 09:38:30 [Permalink]
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[Except that it's not what you said. The difference between the "original" state and the "found" state should be obvious. The chamber was found in its "found state," as an air-raid shelter. The museum reconstructed it in an approximation of its "original state," a fact so mind-numbingly obvious to anyone that Dr. Piper is "nonchalant" about it.]
This is absurd, and anyone who is interested can watch the video and come to their own conclusion, and that is what I recommend.
Note - I suggest that all other gas chamber issues be posted in that thread. |
| Edited by - Rudolfo on 03/25/2010 09:41:08 |
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What is the physical evidence for the holocaust?
