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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 22:24:42 [Permalink]
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| I would favor always reporting to the police anytime a stranger accosts children in an attempt to get them away to a private setting. If this inconveniences or embarrasses child-evangelists, so much the better. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 10:05:12 [Permalink]
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Nobody has the right to talk to a child about anything without the parents or guardians consent. When I was a child I remember other family members would talk to me about religion without my parents consent. When they found out they were understandably upset.
My concern is as Richard Dawkins writes in “The God Delusion” that telling your children about God is child abuse. If he labels it as child abuse then the logical conclusion is that he must also think that someone must do something about it, maybe child protective services or some other government agency to get involved. This is as wrong as Christians evangelizing to kids without the parents consent.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2010 : 11:50:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Nobody has the right to talk to a child about anything without the parents or guardians consent. When I was a child I remember other family members would talk to me about religion without my parents consent. When they found out they were understandably upset.
My concern is as Richard Dawkins writes in “The God Delusion” that telling your children about God is child abuse. If he labels it as child abuse then the logical conclusion is that he must also think that someone must do something about it, maybe child protective services or some other government agency to get involved. This is as wrong as Christians evangelizing to kids without the parents consent.
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Careful with your wording here. Richard Dawkins does not write, by my knowledge, that telling children about God is child abuse. He states that labeling children as Christians (or Hindus or Muslims) is. The difference is subtle, but important, because they shift the meaning dramatically. It's the difference between teaching children about your own beliefs and letting them choose what to believe and telling children "you belong to this group and no other".
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 14:17:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Careful with your wording here. Richard Dawkins does not write, by my knowledge, that telling children about God is child abuse. He states that labeling children as Christians (or Hindus or Muslims) is. The difference is subtle, but important, because they shift the meaning dramatically. It's the difference between teaching children about your own beliefs and letting them choose what to believe and telling children "you belong to this group and no other".
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I will go back and look at the book again to be sure of what he did say. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 04:52:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Robb
Nobody has the right to talk to a child about anything without the parents or guardians consent. When I was a child I remember other family members would talk to me about religion without my parents consent. When they found out they were understandably upset.
My concern is as Richard Dawkins writes in “The God Delusion” that telling your children about God is child abuse. If he labels it as child abuse then the logical conclusion is that he must also think that someone must do something about it, maybe child protective services or some other government agency to get involved. This is as wrong as Christians evangelizing to kids without the parents consent.
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Careful with your wording here. Richard Dawkins does not write, by my knowledge, that telling children about God is child abuse. He states that labeling children as Christians (or Hindus or Muslims) is. The difference is subtle, but important, because they shift the meaning dramatically. It's the difference between teaching children about your own beliefs and letting them choose what to believe and telling children "you belong to this group and no other".
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I think you are right tomk80, on page 354 of The God Delusion Dawkins says:
| ...isn't it always a form of child abuse to label children as possessors of beliefs that they are too young to have thought about? |
I agree that children at a certain age cannot understand what most religions will teach, I disagree that it is a form of child abuse to say baptise a child at birth (no matter how unbiblical it is). I could not find in the book how old Dawkins would consider old enough for a child to decide for themselves. Would it be 12, 14, 16 or an adult? If he does believe it is child abuse what is he doing about it? Seems like nothing but making money off of it from selling a book.
If we label that as child abuse doesn't that put our freedom of religion in jeopardy? Where is the line? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 05:15:35 [Permalink]
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| Here's a thought, Robb: Let children, or adults, freely identify themselves by religion, or lack of religion, at any age. Anything else is abuse, child abuse or adult abuse. Age need not enter into it. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 08:37:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Here's a thought, Robb: Let children, or adults, freely identify themselves by religion, or lack of religion, at any age. Anything else is abuse, child abuse or adult abuse. Age need not enter into it.
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Well maybe. But there are many things that parents decide for their children. If my children decided their diet for themselves they would be very unhealthy kids. Why is religion treated different? If my kids decided for themselves they wanted to follow scientology I would intervene.
I don't see it as an issue with my kids because my belief from the bible is that everybody has to decide for themselves if they believe, contrary to Catholics and Angelicans. If they decide to reject Jesus teachings that is ultimately up to them and I cannot make them believe. I cannot make them a christian. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 08:39:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Nobody has the right to talk to a child about anything without the parents or guardians consent. When I was a child I remember other family members would talk to me about religion without my parents consent. When they found out they were understandably upset.
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Although I agree completely with the "consent" imperative, I've personally never been able to muster a great deal of outrage when my own parental authority has been ignored in this way. I suppose I have accepted the fact that, so long as my children are "out in the world," there is little I can do about the fact that they will be exposed to all manner of ideas -- good, bad, right, wrong. Like most here, I consider myself secular (atheist, if you insist), despite my religious upbringing. But I've never had an issue with my children's exposure to religious "indoctrination" by their mother, extended family, or even their (gulp) Catholic schools. From their earliest days, they've all had a full dose of Roman Catholicism, fundamentalist protestantism, racism, right-wing political and social ideology, young-earth creationism, etc. I have never felt the need to aggressively confront any such issue, apart from the occasional (and increasingly infrequent) "Yes, uncle John believes that, but I don't." Somehow, despite the best efforts of their (usually) well-intended community, my kids (now teens)seem to be pretty comfortable in their own skins, and marvelously liberal, to the dismay of their would-be indoctrinators. |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 09:33:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
Although I agree completely with the "consent" imperative, I've personally never been able to muster a great deal of outrage when my own parental authority has been ignored in this way. I suppose I have accepted the fact that, so long as my children are "out in the world," there is little I can do about the fact that they will be exposed to all manner of ideas -- good, bad, right, wrong. Like most here, I consider myself secular (atheist, if you insist), despite my religious upbringing. But I've never had an issue with my children's exposure to religious "indoctrination" by their mother, extended family, or even their (gulp) Catholic schools. From their earliest days, they've all had a full dose of Roman Catholicism, fundamentalist protestantism, racism, right-wing political and social ideology, young-earth creationism, etc. I have never felt the need to aggressively confront any such issue, apart from the occasional (and increasingly infrequent) "Yes, uncle John believes that, but I don't." Somehow, despite the best efforts of their (usually) well-intended community, my kids (now teens)seem to be pretty comfortable in their own skins, and marvelously liberal, to the dismay of their would-be indoctrinators.
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I don't want to keep my kids from being exposed to others beliefs, I just want to know what they are being exposed to. I do get it that as they get older they will be exposed to all sorts of ideas without my knowing and that is ok and normal. The goal is that we will have the kind of relationship that they will be ok to discuss those concepts with us when they are older as well. But for now my kids are not 8 yet and I think require more supervision over what they are exposed to. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Indoctrination attempts of children by strangers
