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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  17:45:41  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regulating Salt

What part of freedom don't they understand! Setting standards is fine, but for the government to tell anybody how much salt they can use is one more drop of tyranny.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  18:16:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Regulating Salt

What part of freedom don't they understand! Setting standards is fine, but for the government to tell anybody how much salt they can use is one more drop of tyranny.
Wow, Robb, how did you read that into the article you linked to? Don't like your salt-free fries? Then add some salt yourself.

The government isn't criminalizing salt consumption, it's trying to regulate salt inclusion in manufactured foods. Just like the government already regulates how many insect parts can be sold in a pound of chocolate (if you personally want more insect in the chocolate you eat, just go ahead and add some, there's no law against it).

Or do you also think it's a violation of our freedoms for the government to regulate the amount of lead in the paint on children's toys?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  19:07:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
The government isn't criminalizing salt consumption, it's trying to regulate salt inclusion in manufactured foods. Just like the government already regulates how many insect parts can be sold in a pound of chocolate (if you personally want more insect in the chocolate you eat, just go ahead and add some, there's no law against it).

Or do you also think it's a violation of our freedoms for the government to regulate the amount of lead in the paint on children's toys?

Because salt is poisonous? We can't easily use some lead paint, but not too much. All of it causes harm if children ingest it. Plus, we need some salt. How is the analogy justified?

With salt, we can buy whatever foods we choose. If we want to watch our salt intake, we're perfectly capable of doing so without government mandates. There are plenty of companies already making low-salt foods if we choose to buy them.

Perhaps if we were better educated about nutrition, more of us would be interested in low-salt foods, naturally creating incentive for companies to make more.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/20/2010 19:08:13
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  19:14:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Wow, Robb, how did you read that into the article you linked to? Don't like your salt-free fries? Then add some salt yourself.

The government isn't criminalizing salt consumption, it's trying to regulate salt inclusion in manufactured foods. Just like the government already regulates how many insect parts can be sold in a pound of chocolate (if you personally want more insect in the chocolate you eat, just go ahead and add some, there's no law against it).

Or do you also think it's a violation of our freedoms for the government to regulate the amount of lead in the paint on children's toys?
Never said they were criminalizing it but where does it stop. Companies should be able to put as much salt in something as they want. They already have to declare on each package how much is in there. It should be up to us to decide if we want to eat it or not and not the government. Is any food that can cause bad health going to be regulated? Soda, butter, brownies? Whats next?

Lead in paint is a different issue. Regulating poisons is different than regulating a spice.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  19:21:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli

Because salt is poisonous? We can't easily use some lead paint, but not too much. All of it causes harm if children ingest it. Plus, we need some salt. How is the analogy justified?
According to a report on NPR tonight, lowering the average intake of salt by 10% would save tens of thousands of lives per year in the U.S. alone, so yes, salt presents a public health hazard. And because the costs associated with high blood pressure and heart disease are ultimately borne by all of us through increased insurance premiums or increased taxes, reducing the nation's salt intake will give us all more economic freedom.
With salt, we can buy whatever foods we choose. If we want to watch our salt intake, we're perfectly capable of doing so without government mandates. There are plenty of companies already making low-salt foods if we choose to buy them.

Perhaps if we were better educated about nutrition, more of us would be interested in low-salt foods, naturally creating incentive for companies to make more.
According to the IOM, the government has been educating people about the dangers of excessive salt intake for 40 years, and it's had no measurable effect on consumption.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  19:33:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Freedom of seasoning implies the right to freedom from seasoning.

I like to salt things for myself, not be stuck with whatever some merchant considers an attractive level of salt. It's healthier when people get to choose for themselves.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  19:49:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Lead in paint is a different issue. Regulating poisons is different than regulating a spice.
A spice which can lead directly to death when ingested in amounts that are not extraordinary over a number of years. Lead paint isn't immediately fatal, either.

We've got plenty of history and science that shows that humans are not generally the rational actors that free-market economists would have us believe. And sometimes, these irrational actors need to be protected from themselves. Seat belt laws have worked.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2010 :  21:22:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Regulating Salt

What part of freedom don't they understand! Setting standards is fine, but for the government to tell anybody how much salt they can use is one more drop of tyranny.

Tyranny my ass. As long as you are free to add salt to your food, what tyranny would you be speaking of? The deal is, kids and boneheaded adults are being damaged, literally, by having too much salt in their diet.

Hypertension is a killer. Should I go down the list of potential illnesses and deaths directly linked to hypertension? And yet, the salt shaker will still be on the table. Regulating salt in prepared foods is what you call tyranny? You have the freedom to kill yourself in any number of ways, Robb, including over salting your food. No one is stopping you. But should the manufacturers of prepared foods also be allowed to kill you? How about your children? Will they be less free if they have to get used to less salt on their fries?

And this isn't even written in stone yet. It's just a recommendation and it looks like they will ask for voluntary controls first.

Here's a rhetorical question that I must ask. Why are Americans so freaking stupid? Even when the choice isn't being taken away from them, they yell tyranny. Go figure...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  04:20:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Robb

Never said they were criminalizing it but where does it stop.
All the way along the slippery slope to the salt concentration camps obviously.....

Oh no! The freedom of being allowed to hurt stupid people for profit is being attacked. To the barricades!

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  04:36:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[quote
We've got plenty of history and science that shows that humans are not generally the rational actors that free-market economists would have us believe. And sometimes, these irrational actors need to be protected from themselves. Seat belt laws have worked.
[/quote]
So because people don't think for themselves the government should do it for them? Sounds awefully similar to religion's role in peoples lives.
I personally do not think the government should be regulating this. That is what the free market is for. If people want less salt in their food then they should make the companies aware of their desires and muscle them into it. I do not think the fact that many people can't think for themselves is any reason for the government to take over thinking for them.


Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  04:38:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
[/quote]
Tyranny my ass. As long as you are free to add salt to your food, what tyranny would you be speaking of? The deal is, kids and boneheaded adults are being damaged, literally, by having too much salt in their diet.

Hypertension is a killer. Should I go down the list of potential illnesses and deaths directly linked to hypertension? And yet, the salt shaker will still be on the table. Regulating salt in prepared foods is what you call tyranny? You have the freedom to kill yourself in any number of ways, Robb, including over salting your food. No one is stopping you. But should the manufacturers of prepared foods also be allowed to kill you? How about your children? Will they be less free if they have to get used to less salt on their fries?

And this isn't even written in stone yet. It's just a recommendation and it looks like they will ask for voluntary controls first.

Here's a rhetorical question that I must ask. Why are Americans so freaking stupid? Even when the choice isn't being taken away from them, they yell tyranny. Go figure...
[/quote]
It's not about choices be taken away (for me anyway). It's about government poking their nose in where it doesn't belong. In a proper democracy this kind of issue would be dealt with by the citizens without having to resort to government regulation. If the ignorant masses don't have the desire to do something about it themselves then the companies win! It's up to the citizens to take action. If they don't then it is not up to people who think they are smarter than the ignorant masses to impose their views.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
Edited by - Ebone4rock on 04/21/2010 04:43:28
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Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  05:01:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

So because people don't think for themselves the government should do it for them? Sounds awefully similar to religion's role in peoples lives.
...
I personally do not think the government should be regulating this. That is what the free market is for.
Yes, religion is a wonderful thing when it comes to making people believe thing without any supporting or despite contradictory evidence.

Praise the power of the free market! Deliver us from the evils of regulation!

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  05:02:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
So because people don't think for themselves the government should do it for them? Sounds awefully similar to religion's role in peoples lives.
I personally do not think the government should be regulating this. That is what the free market is for. If people want less salt in their food then they should make the companies aware of their desires and muscle them into it. I do not think the fact that many people can't think for themselves is any reason for the government to take over thinking for them.

So because the majority of people is stupid, I cannot make sensible choices.

I don't want sugar in my minced meat. So I buy biological, which contains only meat and no additives. However, despite growing popularity of biological products in the Netherlands, by the time I can get to the shops it's mostly gone.

I am undecided as to how far the government should go in regulating the food and drug industry. But what those against regulation of the market apparently never consider is that I, as a watchful consumer who actually looks at what is in a product am limited in my choices by the majority who do not have that knowledge nor care about it.

And if government by way of regulation increases the choices of the minority who actually thinks, is it than more or less like religion?
Edited by - tomk80 on 04/21/2010 05:02:58
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  05:09:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It's not about choices be taken away (for me anyway). It's about government poking their nose in where it doesn't belong. In a proper democracy this kind of issue would be dealt with by the citizens without having to resort to government regulation. If the ignorant masses don't have the desire to do something about it themselves then the companies win! It's up to the citizens to take action. If they don't then it is not up to people who think they are smarter than the ignorant masses to impose their views.

Part of the job of the government is to protect the minority from the majority. That's why most democratic countries have a consitutional democracy instead of mob rule. Elite rule isn't the way to go, but what you propose is a tyranny of the majority, which is just as bad, if not worse.


Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  05:21:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tomk80

Originally posted by Ebone4rock
It's not about choices be taken away (for me anyway). It's about government poking their nose in where it doesn't belong. In a proper democracy this kind of issue would be dealt with by the citizens without having to resort to government regulation. If the ignorant masses don't have the desire to do something about it themselves then the companies win! It's up to the citizens to take action. If they don't then it is not up to people who think they are smarter than the ignorant masses to impose their views.

Part of the job of the government is to protect the minority from the majority. That's why most democratic countries have a consitutional democracy instead of mob rule. Elite rule isn't the way to go, but what you propose is a tyranny of the majority, which is just as bad, if not worse.



I disagree about it being government's job to protect the minority from the majority. Government's job is to provide infrastructure, not to fight citizens personal battles for them.
If a minority sees itself as a minority then they better be smarter and better organized than the majority....then they can fight the battle, recruit more people for their cause...and eventually become the majority.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2010 :  05:25:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I disagree about it being government's job to protect the minority from the majority.

Which shows how little you know about government.

Government's job is to provide infrastructure, not to fight citizens personal battles for them.

Part of that infrastructure is a right to not taken advantage of by a majority.

If a minority sees itself as a minority then they better be smarter and better organized than the majority....then they can fight the battle, recruit more people for their cause...and eventually become the majority.

It's not about a minority being better or not. It's about the government protecting the rights of everybody, regardless of the power they have or the popularity of their viewpoint.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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