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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2010 : 05:02:29
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Finding myself in an especially foul frame of mind this morning, and hoping for a taste of blood, I dropped by Uncommon Descent for the first time this year. Ain't much changed over there -- the denial is still as asinine as ever. To give some idea of the depth of the stubborn ignorance on display, I submit this:
Wasting Time and Energy on the Hopelessly Implausible — An Engineer’s Perspective
GilDodgen
| The Darwinian speculative thesis of random errors filtered by natural selection explaining anything substantial in biology is simply, completely, and astronomically out of the ballpark of plausibility. |
That is an extraordinary statement; upon what do you base it?
| In our engineering department (software, hardware, electrical, mechanical, aeronautical) we have a phrase: Does the proposed solution pass the beverage-out-the-nose test? (Meaning, of course: Would the proposed approach have any possibility of success?) |
"Beverage out the nose" is evidence of nothing beyond a sticky keyboard. Where is your evidence that any given "proposed approach" to evolution lacks the "possibility of success?"
| The problem with most Darwinists is that they have no real-world experience in any hard-science discipline with real-world accountability (such as engineering), in which a proposed solution or mechanism must first pass the beverage-out-the-nose test, and then be empirically verified to be capable of what is claimed for it. |
Well, lessee; there are biologists, geologists, astronomers, paleontologists, entomologists, ichthyologists, and a whole raft of other 'ologists including the lowly herpetologists. Alongside these actual scientists, you guys are playing with tinker toys at the day-care center. Be careful not to swallow any of the small bits; they might choke you.
| Storytelling doesn’t cut it in real science, but that’s basically all Darwinists have left, especially in light of the fact that the underlying mechanisms of living systems are fundamentally based on the most sophisticated computer program ever written. |
It wasn't done on a computer, bunky. It was done in nature, as sloppy as that sometimes is. No, story-telling won't cut it and that's all you've got; stories from a book of nonsense.
The Theory of Evolution is ever plastic. It must be thus, as new evidence appears almost every day that changes one aspect of it or another. There is and never will be a finished product and the creationists just can't stand that. To them, everything must be just so, the actual evidence not withstanding.
But keep wavin' them hands; ol' Gil's gonna make it to big-time someday.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 04/26/2010 06:52:44
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 05:22:53 [Permalink]
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Again with the engineers! (May they prosper within their sphere of expertise.)
Apropos to the above post, the pro-evolution site "Creationism" has the following (bottom of this page) that touches upon the Creationist engineers (they have very few scientists, especially biologists) who propound their ignorance of matters biological:Attack the ID crowd!!!!!
The ID crowd often includes scientists who are familiar with the terminology of science so they can make the arguments sound really complex. Many tend to be engineers in search of a mathematical precision that is sometimes not at all possible in biological systems. Mathematics and physics study phenomenon that are almost always highly predictable. It takes a highly intelligent mind to succeed in these fields. They do not understand that biology is the science of the exception to the rule; living organisms do not always behave in totally predictable ways. When someone tries to apply mathematics to biological exceptions things don't always work out as predicted and the common mistake is to attribute this complexity to a higher being. This is then offered as "proof" of God.
Since the engineer couldn't figure out how it works then it's beyond the understanding of humans and thus belongs to the realm of God. It's an interesting circular argument but not exactly empirical proof. Still they manage to make their arguments sound so complex that a normal person cannot argue with their position and are thus more likely to accept their conclusions without question. It's a form of jargon overload meant to sound scientific and thus trustworthy. However these arguments almost never stand up to serious scientific review by peers familiar with the science being discussed. Often the argument contain glaring omissions or misinterpretations that a normal person would never notice. The Intelligent Designer proponents rely on this to spread their views. |
[My emphasis.] |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 06:56:41 [Permalink]
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| The problem with most Darwinists is that they have no real-world experience in any hard-science discipline with real-world accountability |
I'm pretty sure herpetologist Filthy can attest that handling (hot) reptiles definitly demands accountability; he's doing it with his life on the line in some instances. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 07:24:11 [Permalink]
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it always boggles me that it seems that there are more theists in the computer sciences (and right wingy at that) than not - of course this may be a product of where I live (deep dankest South). these computer people see the world through their myopic eye and can't see any other way - not quite sure how i escaped this (i've been doing computer programming/network engineering for almost 20 years now professionally) - maybe its because i don't have a college degree in the computer sciences - i studied philosophy and political science back then.
anyway it has been a while since i've posted on these forum and i hope to get a bit more active again. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 12:42:17 [Permalink]
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Another clown giving Engineers a bad reputation. 
Engineering is the application of science to the world, the art of turning the "hopelessly implausible" into reality. At one time, the X-15, iPhone, and Burj Khalifa would have been "hopelessly implausible" to dolts with small minds and no imagination. In fact, I would submit that the history of Engineering has been making the "hopelessly implausible" commonplace.
As for the "beverage-out-the-nose test" in Engineering, well, there is no such thing. There may be reasons not to pursue an idea, such as cost or applicability, but only a complete moron dismisses it out of hand without at least a cursory study. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 13:19:40 [Permalink]
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The "beverage-out-the-nose test" is nothing different from Rudolfo's "prima facie evidence."
Don't forget that Gil Dodgen is the tool who thinks that the only way to accurately simulate evolution on a computer is to have the operating system and even the hardware itself undergo random mutations, yet he doesn't find it necessary to take the computers on which he's simulating parachutes and throw they out of an airplane. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 14:08:13 [Permalink]
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The Salem hypothesis
From wiki article:
PZ Myers:
It was proposed by a fellow named Bruce Salem who noticed that, in arguments with creationists, if the fellow on the other side claimed to have personal scientific authority, it almost always turned out to be because he had an engineering degree. The hypothesis predicted situations astonishingly well — in the bubbling ferment of talk.origins, there were always new creationists popping up, pompously declaiming that they were scientists and they knew that evolution was false, and subsequent discussion would reveal that yes, indeed, they were the proud recipient of an engineering degree.
... Of course, it doesn't say that engineers are all creationists: it says that creationists with advanced degrees are often engineers, a completely different thing altogether. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 14:42:48 [Permalink]
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Someone correct me if I'm, wrong, and this being the site it is, I'm sure someone will, gleefully, but I seem to recall that Henry Morris, one of the founders of ICR is (was?) an engineer. Phillip Johnson on the other hand, he of the Wedge Document, is a lawyer. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 14:52:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Someone correct me if I'm, wrong, and this being the site it is, I'm sure someone will, gleefully, but I seem to recall that Henry Morris, one of the founders of ICR is (was?) an engineer. Phillip Johnson on the other hand, he of the Wedge Document, is a lawyer.
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Yes, Henry Morris was an engineer. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 15:14:37 [Permalink]
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| lol @ engineers pretending to be scientists. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2010 : 03:12:40 [Permalink]
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Don't forget our current local engineer-scientist-skeptic: Originally posted by Rudolfo
I am a scientist (pretty high powered engineer with a long resume). I don't have to look up scientific skepticism. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2010 : 03:43:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
Don't forget our current local engineer-scientist-skeptic: Originally posted by Rudolfo
I am a scientist (pretty high powered engineer with a long resume). I don't have to look up scientific skepticism. |
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Or our errant cantbe323. He claimed to be an engineer but when I asked him where he got his degree(s) and in which field, he scuttled off to something else. Indeed, he did a lot of scuttling-off and finally, with a little encouragement from the mods, buggering off.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 05:25:26 [Permalink]
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| I for one always felt that metal fatigue caused the dinosaur extinction. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 06:52:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
| The problem with most Darwinists is that they have no real-world experience in any hard-science discipline with real-world accountability |
I'm pretty sure herpetologist Filthy can attest that handling (hot) reptiles definitly demands accountability; he's doing it with his life on the line in some instances.
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If you do everything just right, Doc, every, single time, you will not have a safety problem with venomous serpents. I know guys who have gone their entire careers without a bite. I've gone mine with only a few.
I'm retired, now. The arthritis in my hands forbids it, and I have given up my state license. But y'know, I really miss the hot guys. They are just so amazing.
Evolution has engineered them perfectly, epecally Viperidae.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 08:02:16 [Permalink]
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As an Electrical Engineer with a large aerospace company (based largely in Washington State), I've had personal contact with a number of EEs and MEs who like to think of themselves as "scientists". If anything, it only adds credibility to the adage that a little learning is a dangerous thing.
In reality, an engineering degree requires very little science. Other than a few undergrad chemistry and physics courses the rest of the curriculum is geared toward one's specialty, and one can get through a Strength of Materials or Control Systems course with rote learning; no critical thinking necessary. I offer myself as a textbook example. Add to that the fact that most EEs and MEs took their last biology course in high school, and you have engineers claiming to be "scientists" as embarrassments to the profession.
Creationist engineers and creationist scientists do have one thing in common however; the ability to focus their analytical skills on their particular specialty while ignoring those same skills when it comes to their religious beliefs. |
| Edited by - TG on 04/26/2010 08:37:18 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 14:15:28 [Permalink]
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Well stated, TG.
First, my background: My main life's work was as a Field "Engineer," actually a blue-collar guy who was trained just enough to be able to swap out circuit boards to repair minicomputers and test them. So "Engineer" in my case is similar to the honorific title given to a locomotive driver, rather than to a degreed professional trained in academia.
Can you imagine the rightful fuss that would arise among real engineers, if a biological scientist like PZ Myers or Richard Dawkins dared to claim to be "engineers," and used this false-flag authority to make claims about the relative safety, performance characteristics, and quality of Boeing vs. Airbus jet transports? They'd be tarred and feathered, and then run out of town on a rail. And the engineers doing it to them would be in the right. Most scientists simply don't have vital engineering-specific knowledge that you mention, like "Strength of Materials or Control Systems course with rote learning" that real engineers need to have under their belts. Yet the Creationist engineers do the inverse daily. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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An Engineer's Perspective
