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 Tea baggers take over Maine Repugs
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2550 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2010 :  21:14:26  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can read about it here.

The official platform for the Republican Party of Maine is now a mix of right-wing fringe policies, libertarian buzzwords and outright conspiracy theories.

The document calls for the elimination of the Department of Education and the Federal Reserve, demands an investigation of "collusion between government and industry in the global warming myth," suggests the adoption of "Austrian Economics," declares that "'Freedom of Religion' does not mean 'freedom from religion'" (which I guess makes atheism illegal), insists that "healthcare is not a right," calls for the abrogation of the "UN Treaty on Rights of the Child" and the "Law Of The Sea Treaty" and declares that we must resist "efforts to create a one world government."


Ok, for one thing, if the religious right fucktards who run the teabaggers really believe that "healthcare is not a right", then those people have NO right to gloat about the "atheists lack of charity"!

More:

Despite the document's crazy content, Maine Republican Party Chair Charlie Webster insisted to the AP that all of the elements in the platform are things that Republicans support. He claimed to the Press Herald that these issues reflect the values of working-class Mainers.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 05/10/2010 :  22:49:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Half of those things are not even consistent with Austrian economics, or at least the non-economics views of the influential Austrian economists, which they considered an integral part.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 05/10/2010 22:50:41
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  06:02:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The document calls for the elimination of the Department of Education and the Federal Reserve,

Whacked
demands an investigation of "collusion between government and industry in the global warming myth,

Might be a good idea although I do not like the use of the word "myth".
suggests the adoption of "Austrian Economics,"

I need to learn more about this subject.
'Freedom of Religion' does not mean 'freedom from religion'"

They can bite my ass.
insists that "healthcare is not a right

The one thing I agree with.


Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  08:20:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
insists that "healthcare is not a right

The one thing I agree with.
[/quote]
Yeah, if someone gets cancer and can't pay treatment, just let them die a long, painful death is what I say.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  08:22:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Someone needs to explain to me, in small words, so I can understand, why healthcare should not be a right. How is denying health care based on the ability to pay not an exercise in social Darwinism?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  08:43:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, since the belief is that the more money one has, the more able one is to survive, that might be called economic Darwinism.

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:10:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
insists that "healthcare is not a right

The one thing I agree with.
Access to affordable health care is as much a human right as access to food or clean drinking water.

The very first right enshrined in the U.S. Constitution is the right to "life." I don't see how anyone could reasonably deny that proper medical care is essential to life.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:10:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Someone needs to explain to me, in small words, so I can understand, why healthcare should not be a right. How is denying health care based on the ability to pay not an exercise in social Darwinism?


I am not denying that it would be an excercize in social Darwinism. The whole idea of social Darwinism is a new one for me to think about. Altruism is not one of my strong points. I don't know which side of the idea I will end up on yet. Go ahead and try to convice me to see your side. I promise to consider your thoughts.

My wife and I work long hours and pay a good portion of our income for health care. It should be the responsibility of each family to do so. If communities want to come together to help those who can not afford health care on their own when they have a major problem then I think that is wonderful. I even help out with these kinds of things sometimes. I don't want it to be forced on me to have to help out though.

I am not an equality for all kind of guy. I feel that equality is earned by hard work, not given.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
Edited by - Ebone4rock on 05/11/2010 09:12:20
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:14:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Someone needs to explain to me, in small words, so I can understand, why healthcare should not be a right. How is denying health care based on the ability to pay not an exercise in social Darwinism?

I guess it depends. To me, the right to health care ties into similar acts that I would generally think of as part of "preventing or elaviating suffering".

If you pass someone on the road who is suffering, for example wounded or dieing, I think it is your duty to act to your best knowledge to help that person. In Dutch law at least, leaving someone to die or suffer is a criminal act. You have an obligation to help, even if the best you can do is run to the nearest phone booth to call 112 (the European 911). I see health care in much the same way. If someone who is sick, is at a place where the people are qualified to help him (GP or hospital), they have the duty to help. In fact, even in the US they have the legal obligation to help. From there, it is a small step to also needing to treat currently non-lethal afflictions, since these generally have an ability to become lethal if not treated.

So to argue that health care is not a right, you need to explain to me that it is moral for a hospital to reject a person brought to them wounded or dieing. And for me to accept that, you need to explain to me that it would be moral for me to walk on without looking if you were lying on the street in mortal danger after you were shot by a stranger who assaulted you to steal your wallet.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:25:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Access to affordable health care is as much a human right as access to food or clean drinking water.


Are these things rights?

I have a feeling that my opposing point of view comes from the fact that I was raised where these things were not rights,they had to be worked for or else we would DIE! It would be logisticly impossible for government to provide these things to us.
When we wanted water we had to dig a well 100 feet into the ground. When we wanted meat we had to go into the forest and kill it.

It's called the food chain and I'm standing on top of it smiling.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:31:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I am not an equality for all kind of guy. I feel that equality is earned by hard work, not given.

And what if you get sick before you had the chance to earn that equality? Childhood cancer for a kid whose parents are poor?

Or if you did the hard work but despite that didn't earn the money needed for insurance. With low-wage jobs for example. Or the many people who start up a business but fail, for other reasons than not working hard?

The reason I call bullshit on your idea is that it assumes that as long as you work hard, you'll earn enough money to get health insurance. I find this assumption highly suspect, to make an understatement.

This is before getting into the discussion on whether health-care for all might benefit you indirectly. To take an extreme example here, vaccinations work best if you give them to everyone so you achieve herd immunity. The only way vaccinations are really going to be effective is by using tax money to ensure coverage of all, not of some.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:32:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Access to affordable health care is as much a human right as access to food or clean drinking water.


Are these things rights?

Given that the US constitution asserts a right to life, yes.

I have a feeling that my opposing point of view comes from the fact that I was raised where these things were not rights,they had to be worked for or else we would DIE! It would be logisticly impossible for government to provide these things to us.
When we wanted water we had to dig a well 100 feet into the ground. When we wanted meat we had to go into the forest and kill it.

It's called the food chain and I'm standing on top of it smiling.

To give a harsh answer here, luckily we live in a society that is not dominated by sociopaths.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  09:57:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

If communities want to come together to help those who can not afford health care on their own when they have a major problem then I think that is wonderful.
But apparently, the whole of the United States of America is not such a "community," in your opinion. Where is the dividing line? At what level of government (Federal, State, county, city, town, neighborhood or block) is it okay for people to come together and decide such things?
I don't want it to be forced on me to have to help out though.
Or is it that it's never okay for it to be legislated at any level, and communities "coming together" has to be entirely voluntary (in which case, it's not communities coming together, but people)?
I am not an equality for all kind of guy. I feel that equality is earned by hard work, not given.
With regard to health care, you're saying here that some people's lives are worth more than others, in a very real economic sense: that someone who can only afford $20 worth of health care should lay down and die if he needs $20.01 worth of medication to cure an infection.

Also, people don't only become poor by being lazy. People don't become rich only through hard work. Without equality in health care, Bill Gates' kids could do nothing and still have lots of access to doctors, while a farm worker who's never missed a day of hard labor could drop dead in the fields only because he couldn't afford blood-pressure medication. That's not earned equality.

Since diseases and accidents recognize no economic stratifications, neither should our health care. Streptococcus doesn't care how hard you've worked. A runaway bus isn't going to pause to examine your contribution to the GDP before mowing you down.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  10:10:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

I have a feeling that my opposing point of view comes from the fact that I was raised where these things were not rights,they had to be worked for or else we would DIE! It would be logisticly impossible for government to provide these things to us.
It might have been, then. But is it still impossible now?
It's called the food chain and I'm standing on top of it smiling.
Yup, that's the "I got mine, everyone else can fuck off" attitude that dominates among social darwinists. It stands in such stark contrast to the preamble of the Constitution that one might even call it "unamerican."

But if you do anything that makes use of public infrastructure or projects now, like driving on public roads, calling 911, taking medications or communicating over the Internet (oops!), then you're no longer standing on top of the heap through your own hard work. You've got other people to thank for the prosperity you enjoy today.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13458 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  10:32:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Kil

Someone needs to explain to me, in small words, so I can understand, why healthcare should not be a right. How is denying health care based on the ability to pay not an exercise in social Darwinism?


I am not denying that it would be an excercize in social Darwinism. The whole idea of social Darwinism is a new one for me to think about. Altruism is not one of my strong points. I don't know which side of the idea I will end up on yet. Go ahead and try to convice me to see your side. I promise to consider your thoughts.

My wife and I work long hours and pay a good portion of our income for health care. It should be the responsibility of each family to do so. If communities want to come together to help those who can not afford health care on their own when they have a major problem then I think that is wonderful. I even help out with these kinds of things sometimes. I don't want it to be forced on me to have to help out though.

I am not an equality for all kind of guy. I feel that equality is earned by hard work, not given.
And:
Altruism is not one of my strong points.

It pains me to use myself as an example of how things are, but here goes.

I worked hard. I paid taxes. But I was badly hit by the recession, and am still finding it very difficult to get work and I am teetering on the edge of poverty. I have health insurance, but it's cobra (almost $400 a month out of pocket) and it will run out. I also have preexisting conditions. According to you, I have not done enough to earn the "privilege" of health care or I would be able to afford it.

Perhaps I shouldn't have gotten sick. Perhaps I shouldn't have been self-employed. Perhaps the 45 million Americans who don't have decent health coverage, if any at all, are a bunch of fuck ups. Perhaps they should all place their hopes on the good will of others.

The truth is, the government does supply clean drinking water to the majority of Americans and the fee is nominal. And while they could do a better job of supplying food, the government does supply food stamps to those in desperate need. If your situation was as you said it was, it wasn't typical.

I went for forty years thinking everything was okay. I made enough to do everything necessary to live well. But shit happens. Do you think you are immune to losing your job? Do you think that there will always be a market for what you do? I did.

And if you lost whatever security you think you have now, will you be alright with losing access to decent health care too? What will you do? Accept that you played your cards wrong and therefor do not deserve the care that could possibly extend your life so that you can be productive again? Them's the breaks, right? At least you will have your memory of those days when you were on top of the food chain, right?

Just like water and food, it's possible that you will not survive without health care. We are not talking about altruism here. In a civilized society, we care about the least among us. That's a part of the function of government. America isn't particularly civilized though. And a whole lot of people seems to take some pride in that fact. Of course they cloak that lack of civility in catch phrases like "freedom from government" and crap like that. It's darned lucky for the less fortunate among us that those with means like bridges that don't fall down, and decent roads, and, well, a clean water supply. Can't do those things without doing them for everyone.

I'll tell you what. I hear someone use the word "altruism" and it makes me happy that Ayn Rand is still dead.





Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2010 :  10:51:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So to argue that health care is not a right, you need to explain to me that it is moral for a hospital to reject a person brought to them wounded or dieing.

I don't know of any times this has happened. If it did I am sure the hospital would have Hell to pay.

And what if you get sick before you had the chance to earn that equality? Childhood cancer for a kid whose parents are poor?

This is a good example of a time where the community would step up and help....and I'd be right there doing my part. I'm not completely heartless.
The reason I call bullshit on your idea is that it assumes that as long as you work hard, you'll earn enough money to get health insurance. I find this assumption highly suspect, to make an understatement.


True in too many cases.
Given that the US constitution asserts a right to life, yes

You are using your own definition of "Right to life". I'd like to see other definitions.

To give a harsh answer here, luckily we live in a society that is not dominated by sociopaths.

How does that fact that I am perfectly capable of taking care of my family without government assistance, Hell, I even have the skills to do it without electricity or running water, make me a sociopath?



Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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