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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2010 : 23:19:01 [Permalink]
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Enone4rock said:
They shouldn't be required to but they will. I know that most people are basicly good. Again I must re-evaluate my position.
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If you think that most people are basically good, then you have led a truly sheltered life. The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff. From individuals to groups all the way up to nations this is the dominant theme of human history. Ignore it at your peril.
We recognize that living together is better than living alone, that law is better than chaos, and all that jazz.... but when you reduce things to a survival level the vast majority of people would do just about anything to feed themselves or their children.
Just as a thought expiriment, lets just say that a non-white muslim who liked to wear a "DEATH TO AMERICA" burning flag t-shirt was living in your very small town (say he is your local expert well digger) and became deathly ill. Would your entire community come to his aid? Or would many of them (despite the established right to free speech we enjoy here) have been offended by him and refuse?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 04:28:37 [Permalink]
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Just as a thought expiriment, lets just say that a non-white muslim who liked to wear a "DEATH TO AMERICA" burning flag t-shirt was living in your very small town (say he is your local expert well digger) and became deathly ill. Would your entire community come to his aid? Or would many of them (despite the established right to free speech we enjoy here) have been offended by him and refuse?
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Impossible. There would never be such a thing as a non-white person in my hometown. The residents would not know what to do if they saw one. It would create mass confusion. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 11:21:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Just as a thought expiriment, lets just say that a non-white muslim who liked to wear a "DEATH TO AMERICA" burning flag t-shirt was living in your very small town (say he is your local expert well digger) and became deathly ill. Would your entire community come to his aid? Or would many of them (despite the established right to free speech we enjoy here) have been offended by him and refuse?
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Impossible. There would never be such a thing as a non-white person in my hometown. The residents would not know what to do if they saw one. It would create mass confusion.
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Sarcasm aside, what do you think the real answer to the question is?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 13:00:55 [Permalink]
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Sarcasm aside, what do you think the real answer to the question is?
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My hometown is a bit different than an average small town. It is a resort town. The permanent residents are either retirees, business owners, or middle aged people who are sick of city life. There are not generations of families living there. The population is actually quite transient.
Anyway, the person you are describing wouldn't have lived long enough to become deathly ill. He would have probably disappeared under mysterious circumstances not long after he first showed up wearing a "Death To America" shirt. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 14:49:37 [Permalink]
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So what you are saying is that the "good" people of your hometown would not only deny a man his first amendment rights, but would force him to leave on threat of violence or maybe just skip the threats entirely and go straight to the violence if he chose to exercise his constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech.
And you honestly believe these same people would be willing to come together of their own accord and pay for the healthcare of others?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 15:50:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
So what you are saying is that the "good" people of your hometown would not only deny a man his first amendment rights, but would force him to leave on threat of violence or maybe just skip the threats entirely and go straight to the violence if he chose to exercise his constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech.
And you honestly believe these same people would be willing to come together of their own accord and pay for the healthcare of others?
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Dude, that is a seriously bad example. If I saw some guy wearing a "Death To America" shirt I would probably kick his ass myself. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 16:52:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
If I saw some guy wearing a "Death To America" shirt I would probably kick his ass myself. |
Are you at all serious?
You don't like the threat of government violence against you to make you pay for health care for everyone, but you're okay with using violence yourself against someone just for what a t-shirt says?
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 17:01:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Dude, that is a seriously bad example. If I saw some guy wearing a "Death To America" shirt I would probably kick his ass myself.
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Because we all know freedom of speech is just a slogan.
edited to add: Your answer examplifies why it is better if the government takes care of these issues instead of the people on a voluntary basis. If healthcare (or other basic requirements) are arranged on a personal, voluntary basis as you propose, it is very easy for people with unpopular opinions to be denied these services. If these services are arranged by the government, you can set up rules to which the government has to adhere, which avoids this problem. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 05/13/2010 17:07:41 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 17:22:07 [Permalink]
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| Because we all know freedom of speech is just a slogan. |
Freedom of speech protects you from the government interfering. Not from getting jacked in the mouth by an ordinary citizen.
Are you at all serious?
You don't like the threat of government violence against you to make you pay for health care for everyone, but you're okay with using violence yourself against someone just for what a t-shirt says?
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First off, this discussion has me seriously considering a change of position on this subject.
Secondly, I honestly don't know what I would do. Depends on how much I was drinking. I've been in more than one scrap in my life. I sure know that I'd be awefully pissed if someone was wearing a "Death To America" shirt.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 18:00:35 [Permalink]
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While the first amendment is, with regard to free speech, a specific rule to prevent government censorship, we all have some obligation to respect it on every level.
You have every right to tell the guy to fuck off and die, but you do realze that your reaction (kicking the guys ass) is literally no different than these assholes who want to kill the Danish cartoonists for drawing cartoon muhammed?
I'm glad you are thinking on this issue though. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 18:22:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Freedom of speech protects you from the government interfering. Not from getting jacked in the mouth by an ordinary citizen. |
No, laws against assault protect us against getting punched in the mouth by an ordinary citizen.
"Freedom of speech" isn't just an Amendment, it's an ideal towards which we all as individuals should strive. I know it's from a fictional movie, but the writers of The American President got it right:America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours..." | First off, this discussion has me seriously considering a change of position on this subject. |
I know that and I appreciate that. It doesn't mitigate the shock of you saying - apparently quite seriously - that you'd kick the crap out of a stranger for something written on his t-shirt.| Secondly, I honestly don't know what I would do. Depends on how much I was drinking. I've been in more than one scrap in my life. I sure know that I'd be awefully pissed if someone was wearing a "Death To America" shirt. |
Sticks and stones may break your bones, but words can never hurt you. It's fine to get angry about something someone says. It's fine to verbally confront them, call them names, even yell at them in response. But as soon as you lay a finger on them, you leave the realm of arguing over ideas, and enter the deep, dark world of unthinking brutality. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 19:07:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
If they perceive the yelling as an imminent threat, they could attack you and have grounds for self defense. This of course depends largely on the specific situation. |
Well, you have to yell at them from an appropriate distance. If I remember correctly, even spittle landing on someone's clothing can count as assault, so while yelling you also want to be careful of your Ps and Bs.
On the other hand, anyone can perceive anyone as being an imminent threat. The person claiming self-defense will still get arrested, and then have to defend their claim, probably on the "reasonable person" basis. If I'm screaming, "miss, you forgot your purse," she can't claim self-defense and expect to get away with it without lying. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2010 : 03:30:07 [Permalink]
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Did someone, a little while ago, say something about being on top of the food chain? Nothing is farther from the truth -- parasites are the ones laughing and scratching in that coveted position.
Bot fly infection in a human eye.
I wouldn't wish that little beastie off on anyone except Glenn Beck and his ilk. And their faithful followers. And the Bush administration. Et al.
At least minimal health care for all might not prevent our lords and masters from munching on us, but it would aid in getting it treated before the ravening, little monster ate too much.
Oh, and before I forget it, this species of bot fly is native to the U.S. and specializes in humans.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/14/2010 03:31:12 |
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Tea baggers take over Maine Repugs
