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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2010 : 16:40:09 [Permalink]
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| Well, I certain can't argue that your wife doesn't see what she sees, but which program is she working for? |
I'd be glad to go into more detail with you privately if you could guide me on how to use the messaging system next time you see we are both online. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 16:41:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
One thing for your consideration Ebone4rock, is that the experiences of your wife may give a biased view? Since the ones that do well, will make use of your wife's program only temporarily, while the lazy bums keep needing attention?
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Yes, I'm sure it does.
I'm out kids, see you Sunday. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2010 : 17:48:26 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I caught that. The teabaggers and by extension the rest of the Republicans are turning into a collective Krusty the Klown.
Sadly, I didn't read of any of those douchebags getting busted for B&E and/or vandalism.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 18:06:23 [Permalink]
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Ebone4rock said:
While it is obvious to me that it would be ideal for all citizens to have access to healthcare I am not sure if I trust congress to be able to accomplish it efficiently. Our government is not known for it's wise use of financial resources.
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Aside from not being properly funded, what is the problem with Medicare? It is a fully government run program and operates with what appears to be a fair amount of efficiency (5% of it's budget is it's operating cost).
Here is another point to consider as well. Is it right to make a profit from the pain and suffering of your fellow human beings? For profit healthcare does just that. The "death panels" are real, and we have been living with them ever since it became legal to sell health insurance. All healthcare is rationed and always has been.
By comparison to medicare, at 5%, your typical insurance company has a 25% operational cost. Must pay those shareholder dividends! (and your CEO needs his private leer jet and $150M annual bonus)
So what would the objection be to a medicare like program that covered all US citizens? 20% more healthcare than what private insurance companies provide, how can that be a bad thing?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 18:32:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'd be glad to go into more detail with you privately if you could guide me on how to use the messaging system next time you see we are both online. |
You can click the PM (private message) button - - above anyone's post and send them a private message at any time. The signature on my posts includes a link to send me either a PM or an email. If you'd prefer a live chat, we can arrange that via PMs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 01:29:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Here is another point to consider as well. Is it right to make a profit from the pain and suffering of your fellow human beings? For profit healthcare does just that. The "death panels" are real, and we have been living with them ever since it became legal to sell health insurance. All healthcare is rationed and always has been. |
How is this argument not the same as, "Is it right to make a profit from the starvation of your fellow human beings?" targeted at farmers because they don't get food to everyone? Should it be illegal to sell all potentially life-saving goods?
| By comparison to medicare, at 5%, your typical insurance company has a 25% operational cost. Must pay those shareholder dividends! (and your CEO needs his private leer jet and $150M annual bonus) |
Medicare is not the same, it's much smaller and probably structured differently than such a system would need to be. I'd rather their CEO has a $150M bonus than Joe Congressman getting some millions for his political war chest. Maybe we can do the program without such things, but it's hard to counter lobbyists it seems.
| So what would the objection be to a medicare like program that covered all US citizens? 20% more healthcare than what private insurance companies provide, how can that be a bad thing? |
How do you know this number stays as it is for a much larger and different program? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 05/15/2010 01:55:59 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 01:31:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
One thing for your consideration Ebone4rock, is that the experiences of your wife may give a biased view? Since the ones that do well, will make use of your wife's program only temporarily, while the lazy bums keep needing attention?
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I was thinking about the same thing.
A case of counting the hits and forgetting misses. In a negative way. And the wellfare queens are the ones coming back, so it's not stretch of the imagination that those are the faces you remember.
If I'm accused of confirmation bias, then I try to set up a tab and keep count to see if it is true.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 02:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'd be glad to go into more detail with you privately if you could guide me on how to use the messaging system next time you see we are both online.
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When you read Skeptic Friends henceforth, just under the SFN-globe on top of the page is a small menu. Clicking "SFN messenger" will open a pop-up window that keeps track on who's online. Simply by clicking the name of an online person will redirect you to the Personal Message section of the forum. It will also alert you of incoming PMs, according to the refresh-rate you pick out from the drop-down list. I usually set it to once a minute.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 05:47:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
How is this argument not the same as, "Is it right to make a profit from the starvation of your fellow human beings?" targeted at farmers because they don't get food to everyone? Should it be illegal to sell all potentially life-saving goods? |
Farmers are not analogous to insurance-company executives, because the execs don't actually provide health care, they just control access to it.
And when we send aid to a famine-stricken region, and that aid is intercepted and rationed by the despot running the country and the food doesn't get to the people for whom it was intended, we tend to find that at least morally repugnant, if not criminal. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 12:18:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
How is this argument not the same as, "Is it right to make a profit from the starvation of your fellow human beings?" targeted at farmers because they don't get food to everyone? Should it be illegal to sell all potentially life-saving goods? |
Farmers are not analogous to insurance-company executives, because the execs don't actually provide health care, they just control access to it. |
People can still have health care if they can afford it otherwise. They are providing a service to make it easier to pay. Maybe we could blame supermarkets, they require you to buy the food the farmers grow, at a premium too! They're controlling access to food for people who cannot afford it.
And when we send aid to a famine-stricken region, and that aid is intercepted and rationed by the despot running the country and the food doesn't get to the people for whom it was intended, we tend to find that at least morally repugnant, if not criminal.
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Well that's not analogous either, insurance companies are not arbitrarily controlling access, they need to make a profit to exist, meaning it's infeasible to insure those who cannot pay, etc. I suppose the current healthcare bill will provide insurance to those people, albeit through a private company. The argument that it should be provided by government to everyone is a different one, I'm not really arguing against it. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 17:01:05 [Permalink]
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Machi4velli:
People can still have health care if they can afford it otherwise. They are providing a service to make it easier to pay. Maybe we could blame supermarkets, they require you to buy the food the farmers grow, at a premium too! They're controlling access to food for people who cannot afford it. |
Actually, for most food chains the markup is small. I suppose it varies, depending on the item, but they mostly work on volume to make their profits. Sure, there are specialty stores that just ream you. But for the most part the larger chains keep prices as low as they can.
As for what we call food stamps, the qualifications for those are such that you practically have to be homeless to get them. I know. I tried. The fact that I was able to pay my rent disqualified me...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 19:24:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
| They're controlling access to food for people who cannot afford it. |
If only we had a federally funded program that would give out stamps for people who can't afford it. What a shame... |
Sure, I'm not necessarily opposed to that in health insurance, but the post I was replying to used Medicare as an example of a good program, which made that argument to say perhaps it would be good to extend such a program for all citizens. I would prefer to only cover those who are quite poor, and perhaps partial assistance those who are a little short. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 05/15/2010 19:26:43 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2010 : 21:36:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
People can still have health care if they can afford it otherwise. They are providing a service to make it easier to pay. |
Yes, that's exactly what's wrong with the system we have: a basic human need like health care is rationed out based on the size of one's wallet. Everyone should be able to have access to decent health care for even chronic conditions. If they want special care or elective surgery, then they can pay more if they're able.| Maybe we could blame supermarkets, they require you to buy the food the farmers grow, at a premium too! They're controlling access to food for people who cannot afford it. |
They are, and there are spotty and unreliable private solutions in the form of soup kitchens and food banks. Like with health care, everyone should be able to get decent food for free, and if they want special or extra food, they can pay (or, if they've got a medical need, they get special or extra food free, too).| Well that's not analogous either, insurance companies are not arbitrarily controlling access, they need to make a profit to exist, meaning it's infeasible to insure those who cannot pay, etc. |
But the economics of health care can be arbitrary when compared to the medical need. Some relatively simple-to-fix medical problems require medications that cost a ton due to manufacturing hurdles created by politics. On the other hand, some patient could have a problem which a week of bed rest could fix, but she can't afford an office visit to get it diagnosed and so keeps up her strenuous work-outs because she thinks they're healthy. In other words, if every medical problem had a solution proportional in economic cost to its medical complexity, you'd have a point here.| I suppose the current healthcare bill will provide insurance to those people, albeit through a private company. The argument that it should be provided by government to everyone is a different one, I'm not really arguing against it. |
Health care should be provided to every citizen, regardless of cost. Insurance should be limited to things that might happen. But everyone needs some amount of health care. Providing insurance to citizens (even "single payer") is the wrong solution to the problem because it adds a needless middleman layer. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tea baggers take over Maine Repugs
