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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  16:49:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by dglas

I see two peoples determined to kill each other, and other interests that are helping them do just that.

Nothing more. I do not take sides.


And by doing so, you take sides.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  17:06:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Gorgo. How effective would their protest have been if they didn't get the Israeli solders to over react? This might be mind-boggling to you, I dunno, but I think that's exactly what they wanted.

Those crafty protestors at Kent State trapped those National Guardsmen into shooting at them, didn't they! Bastards!


I'm not defending what Israel did here, mind you.
Yes you are.
You're blaming the victim.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  17:30:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes you are.
You're blaming the victim.


Not at all. Blame? No. Set up? Yes. Are they victims if they got exactly what they were after? They wouldn't be the first to lay down their lives for a cause...

You think they were a bunch of goody two shoes, Okay. Think that. I think they were fighting a war and they outflanked the enemy...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  18:17:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

[quote]Without addressing the legality of it, it's legal? No. It's a crime.

Lets not forget Israel is not conducting the blockade alone. The Gaza Strip has land that borders Israel and Egypt, and is blockaded by Israel and Egypt. Does Egypt love Israel and hate their Muslim brothers making this marriage? It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade. Those acts of war warrant a tool of war, like this blockade. It was those attacks that caused Israel to destroyed buildings that are in need of rebuilding.

Are you saying the blockade is illegal? I believe that point is determined in a court not by others opinions. The U.N. Human Rights Chief Navi Pillay's opinion "Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal" does not make it fact. What court has determined that it is? Has one? I could have missed that news. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
Edited by - sailingsoul on 06/03/2010 18:20:01
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  18:38:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sailingsoul:
It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade.


Actually, no. It was the election of Hamas that brought about the blockade. The blockade is purely political. It's punishment for putting a group that doesn't recognize Israel as a nation in power. It's a stupid and cruel policy that has been completely counter productive...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2010 :  19:14:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

sailingsoul:
It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade.


Actually, no. It was the election of Hamas that brought about the blockade. The blockade is purely political. It's punishment for putting a group that doesn't recognize Israel as a nation in power. It's a stupid and cruel policy that has been completely counter productive...
The blockade is also military. Israel doesn't want weapons delivered to Hamas. If ships were free to land at Gaza, ships filled with weapons would soon follow.

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2010 :  00:39:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Yes you are.
You're blaming the victim.


Not at all. Blame? No. Set up? Yes. Are they victims if they got exactly what they were after? They wouldn't be the first to lay down their lives for a cause...

You think they were a bunch of goody two shoes, Okay. Think that. I think they were fighting a war and they outflanked the enemy...


Yeah, they wanted to be shot. They were forty miles into international waters in the middle of the night yelling "shoot me."

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2010 :  00:43:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Originally posted by Gorgo

[quote]Without addressing the legality of it, it's legal? No. It's a crime.

Lets not forget Israel is not conducting the blockade alone. The Gaza Strip has land that borders Israel and Egypt, and is blockaded by Israel and Egypt. Does Egypt love Israel and hate their Muslim brothers making this marriage? It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade. Those acts of war warrant a tool of war, like this blockade. It was those attacks that caused Israel to destroyed buildings that are in need of rebuilding.

Are you saying the blockade is illegal? I believe that point is determined in a court not by others opinions. The U.N. Human Rights Chief Navi Pillay's opinion "Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal" does not make it fact. What court has determined that it is? Has one? I could have missed that news. SS


You sound like some of the people here that said the wars against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan cannot be crimes because no one has been prosecuted. When the U.S. can veto U.N. Security Resolutions what is going to happen to the U.S. and its partners and clients?

Just because Obama/Bush is head of a powerful state does not mean that what he does is not a violation of international law. Just because the U.S. vetos Security Resolutions which try to stop Israel's crimes does not mean that Israel is not in violation of international law.

Are you saying that one person can commit a crime, but if it's two people that makes it okay?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 06/04/2010 00:46:23
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2010 :  02:34:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
You think they were a bunch of goody two shoes, Okay. Think that. I think they were fighting a war and they outflanked the enemy...

Some of them were. The armada sailed with an international crew. I think the number was 30+ nationalities. One of Sweden's most prominent authors were aboard one of the boader ships (yes, several if not all of them were boarded and search for weapons), as was a member of the Swedish parliament.

And hell yes, they outflanked the enemy. Israel started the blockade, and attempt was made to break the blockade: either way it was a lose-lose situation. Israel has painted itself into a corner, and have themselves to blame.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2010 :  03:03:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul
Lets not forget Israel is not conducting the blockade alone. The Gaza Strip has land that borders Israel and Egypt, and is blockaded by Israel and Egypt. Does Egypt love Israel and hate their Muslim brothers making this marriage?

Yes, Egypt has actively participated in the blockade. They have opened their border a bit in the wake of this incident. Egypt tends to do what they can to stay in the middle of the issue, usually they're involved in mediation.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/06/03/1662410/amid-gaza-health-crisis-patients.html

It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade. Those acts of war warrant a tool of war, like this blockade. It was those attacks that caused Israel to destroyed buildings that are in need of rebuilding.

The mortar attacks provoked this? Are we forgetting that Israelis are actively annexing their lands? ("Their lands" being defined as what the UN chose to give them when they were divvying it up.) The Israelis have been building new settlements on lands they don't own, building walls well into Gaza and forcing Palestinians out, kidnapping their elected officials when they actually can get some.

Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If my ship had been boarded on international waters, I'd think I would have defended it.

The boarding was not any sort of surprise (the degree of violence that ensued was), the boat was trying to bait the Israelis to draw attention to the blockade. They likely didn't have to fight at all, if they let the Israelis on the boat, I doubt they would have attacked. (Purposely firing on a boat full of Westerners would be idiotic for the Israelis.) I don't justify Israel, and I utterly support the activists, but they weren't really defending their ship, there was no real chance of defending it after they were spotted and they knew that.

Hamas was democratically elected, Israel may bitch about it, but there it is. If they hadn't terrorised the Palestinians the way they did, the political situation would have been very different.

Not sure Hamas' rise is democratic in any meaningful sense, they control the supplies (and hijack the ones they don't control) and pass them out to solidify power. It is Israel's fault (and PLO/Fatah's uselessness), sure, but that doesn't really legitimize Hamas.

That being said, I don't agree with Israel kidnapping them every time they make up an excuse. I think it's just a matter of Israel trying to break up organized groups of Palestinians who could ever challenge them. I'm sure they love Fatah and Hamas fighting amongst themselves.

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict

2830 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2010 :  09:26:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sailingsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

sailingsoul:
It was rocket and morter attacks that came/come from Gaza that provoked or brought this blockade.


Actually, no. It was the election of Hamas that brought about the blockade. The blockade is purely political. It's punishment for putting a group that doesn't recognize Israel as a nation in power. It's a stupid and cruel policy that has been completely counter productive...

You are correct. Thanks for informing and correcting me, kil. SS

There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2010 :  02:32:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Hamas was democratically elected, Israel may bitch about it, but there it is. If they hadn't terrorised the Palestinians the way they did, the political situation would have been very different.

Not sure Hamas' rise is democratic in any meaningful sense, they control the supplies (and hijack the ones they don't control) and pass them out to solidify power. It is Israel's fault (and PLO/Fatah's uselessness), sure, but that doesn't really legitimize Hamas.

That being said, I don't agree with Israel kidnapping them every time they make up an excuse. I think it's just a matter of Israel trying to break up organized groups of Palestinians who could ever challenge them. I'm sure they love Fatah and Hamas fighting amongst themselves.
Did you ever expect it to be pretty?

Both Sweden and USA have hundreds of years of developing democracy, and time to have its citizen become accustomed to it. Palestine is a shake-and-bake democracy, with a tradition of theocracy. Even Israel's citizens have a history either moving in from countries with democracy, or being brought up in Israel as a functioning democracy.

Israel destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure in late 90s and early 2000s with their military force. Roads, sanitation, any and all police stations, and most Palestinian governmental offices. Thus effectively destroying all social security the Palestinians had.
Hamas on the other hand, have had their own social security branch since the late 80s. Not a large one, but they saw a need and decided it was a good recruiting strategy. When Israel destroyed the governmental social security (which was run by the more peaceful, and then democratically elected, Fatah) they created a vaccuum that Hamas could exploit in order to expand. When last election in Gaza and Westbank ended up with Hamas elected, I wasn't surprised. Dismayed and disappointed, yes, but not surprised. So the shit down there with Hamas in control is Israel's own fault to begin with.


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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2010 :  02:59:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If my ship had been boarded on international waters, I'd think I would have defended it.

The boarding was not any sort of surprise (the degree of violence that ensued was), the boat was trying to bait the Israelis to draw attention to the blockade.

The boarding was not a surprise to me either. But they violated international law when they boarded the ship on international water!
If they had waited until they were within territorial waters, it would have been harder to make the case of Israel using overkill aggression. The argument could still be made that the waters off the coast of Gaza legally belongs to Gaza and not Israel, but it's a lot murkier issue, and something definitely debatable within the forum of United Nations.
Israel is USA's baby. It's about fucking time Obama starts chastising Israel for braking the rules. They have a lot to answer for...


They likely didn't have to fight at all, if they let the Israelis on the boat, I doubt they would have attacked.

Eyewitness reports in Swedish media said Israeli commandos were firing even before they set one foot on the ships.



(Purposely firing on a boat full of Westerners would be idiotic for the Israelis.)

They weren't Westerners, they were Mussel-men or otherwise enemies of the God's Chosen State of Israel.



I don't justify Israel, and I utterly support the activists, but they weren't really defending their ship, there was no real chance of defending it after they were spotted and they knew that.

Putting up token resistance has political value, I'm sure you can agree on that. Those taking up any kind of arms to defend the ship was in immediate danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers, and I'm pretty sure they were aware of that too. However, it seems like they underestimated the risk:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results

The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".

He calculated that during the bloodiest part of the assault, Israeli commandos shot one person every minute. One man was fatally shot in the back of the head just two feet in front him and another was shot once between the eyes. He added that as well as the fatally wounded, 48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.

The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2010 :  04:41:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did Kil shave his head to appear in this video?

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2010 :  08:10:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Gorgo

Did Kil shave his head to appear in this video?

Very funny... Of course, it has nothing to do with what I have said. I have been involved in many protests. I know that our goal at some of those was to PROVOKE a hostile response. Why can't you wrap your head around that?

To intimate that I side with Israel on what went down, as the bald guy does in the clip, is a gross mis-caricaturization of all that I have said.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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