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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2010 : 14:34:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Gorgo
Kil. Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. What law did the protestors break?
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And you say that you don't have a black and white interpretation of what went down?
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Kil. Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. What law did the protestors break? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 14:41:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. |
Repeating something will not magically make it become true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 14:43:21 [Permalink]
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I have answered your question Gorgo. So has Dave. Take it or leave it. I guess you're going to leave it. Repeating yourself doesn't make your question any more valid.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 14:48:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I suspect that can only be said of one ship in the flotilla. I think that the people on the other ships were probably engaged in civil disobedience. |
Yes, and a bunch of people on other ships got man-handled and tazed for blocking Israeli access to the bridges of those ships. Again, an Israeli over-reaction that they should have to answer for. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 16:03:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Kil. Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. What law did the protestors break?
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Israel's law of the blockade of Palestinian territory.
Regardless of whether this is a just law or not, their purpose was to break it. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 17:15:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Gorgo
Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. |
Repeating something will not magically make it become true.
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Exactly, but for some reason you and Kil repeat these smears of the victims of this crime. Somehow I think you don't mean to do that, but think you're being sophisticated in repeating the right wing lies that you hear.
Civil disobedience? Does Kil think that Israel rules the 7 seas? Is that why he thinks this group caused the Israelis to commit these crimes? I don't think so. I don't think he believes what he's saying. I think he's mistaken in using the terms that he uses. I don't think he means to be as cruel as he sounds.
He has stated that they had ulterior motives. That as a protestor, it was his desire to provoke something or other than what he really said he was doing, I don't know what.
My desire as a protestor was to be heard. To change people's minds and their actions. Ask any one of those protestors if their desire was to be beaten, to be shot, and when shot, to be left to die on the floor, instead of being taken for medical care. Tell them you think their desire was not to peacefully take those supplies into Gaza.
Does Kil really think it was the desire of civil rights protestors to be beaten, to be lynched, to have dogs and water cannons set on them, or was it to peacefully reason with people? Did they really have ulterior motives?
Just admit that you're wrong in unintentionally echoing these smears.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 17:17:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Gorgo
Kil. Civil disobedience is about breaking the law. What law did the protestors break?
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Israel's law of the blockade of Palestinian territory.
Regardless of whether this is a just law or not, their purpose was to break it.
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So, you think Israel rules the 7 seas too? Any ship anywhere in the world can be attacked by Israel, and it's the fault of the victim of that attack? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 17:52:24 [Permalink]
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Gorgo. No one wants to be beaten. No one wants to be hurt. I didn't want to be hit with a belly club at a rally, but I was. That shit happens when you face off with the law.
I can't explain this any better than I have. What is this. About the third time you have accused me of siding with the right? You couldn't be more wrong. But I can't convince you of that. And I'm done trying.
Apparently, you are the only person posting on this thread who sees things clearly...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 18:25:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by dglas
I see two peoples determined to kill each other, and other interests that are helping them do just that.
Nothing more. I do not take sides.
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And by doing so, you take sides.
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Congratulations. That response gets my stupid award for this week. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 18:35:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Exactly, but for some reason you and Kil repeat these smears of the victims of this crime. |
Are you joking? That the victims stated their intentions to provoke a reaction from the Israelis is a "smear?" Are you such a hypersensitive postmodern leftist that simply stating a fact that you disagree with is a "smear," now?| Somehow I think you don't mean to do that, but think you're being sophisticated in repeating the right wing lies that you hear. |
The victims of the Israeli crimes were spreading right-wing lies about themselves before they set sail? Are you at all serious?| Civil disobedience? Does Kil think that Israel rules the 7 seas? Is that why he thinks this group caused the Israelis to commit these crimes? |
And now we see your re-definition of the word "provoked" to mean "caused." Do you honestly think that those words are synonyms?| I think he's mistaken in using the terms that he uses. |
Look in the mirror.| Tell them you think their desire was not to peacefully take those supplies into Gaza. |
Oh, come on! Do you have any idea what Israel thought of the IHH? Whether the IHH actually is a terrorist group is irrelevant, the idea that they had any chance of peacefully delivering those supplies is ludicrous, and they must have known that when they left port.
Go read the articles about the flotilla on the IHH website, Gorgo. The president of the group, Bulent Yildirim, describes Israel as an irrational military state making plans to intercept the flotilla many days before they arrived, and Yildirim repeatedly states that the ships would never turn away. He was basically saying that if the crazy people with the guns know what's good for them, they won't shoot. But calling them irrational and then expecting them to act rationally was just dumb. Israel drew a line in the sand (or water, in this case), and Yildirim was determined to step over it.
Now, I have no idea if any of them wanted to die, but they definitely went in looking for a confrontation. Yildirim's repeated statements that any Israeli aggression would be met non-violently were either coldly calculated lies or not everyone on board got the memo (in which case, Yildirim is still partially responsible because he didn't have control of the people he was leading). I'm leaning towards lies, since his words, "We do not even have a jackknife here," were ludicrous when a functioning ship of that size requires all sorts of implements which could be much more effective impromptu weapons than jackknives, and he followed it up with this ridiculous boast, "but we will not let the Israeli soldiers onboard this ship." Right. These two ideas, combined in the same sentence and juiced up with Israel being described as totally unreasonable, are beyond belief.
In another article, Yildirim discusses all the medical staff he had on board the ship. He suspected people were going to get hurt, even if nobody else did. Again, maybe he didn't expect people to die, but he was prepared for violence towards "women, children and the elderly."
Perhaps just Yildirim bears responsibility along with Israel. Perhaps all the other people on the ship were just duped by him into sticking their heads into the lion's mouth.| Just admit that you're wrong in unintentionally echoing these smears. |
Just admit that you're joking when you suggest that facts are "smears." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 18:49:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
So, you think Israel rules the 7 seas too? Any ship anywhere in the world can be attacked by Israel, and it's the fault of the victim of that attack? |
Gorgo, does the rule-of-thumb for survival that one should avoid aggressively confronting an insane man with a loaded gun change based on where the insane man is? Does the insane man's criminal usurpation of territory somehow make him more likely to avoid shooting people who taunt him? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 19:11:55 [Permalink]
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| Martin Luther King didn't advocate using weapons as defense. Part of one ship of protesters of the Gaza blockade did. Israel greatly overreacted, but if you think protesters in this case were told "The Israelis have sent armed forces to stop shipments of aid to the Gaza strip in the past, but you don't have to worry about getting hurt", then Yldirim is being reckless. Protesters knew, or should have known, that they would be in a dangerous situation. It's not like they are tourists on a cruise ship who get stopped by the Israeli navy and boarded for no reason. They knew they were banned, they knew they would face violence if they defied the ban. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 20:54:47 [Permalink]
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The more I think about this, the worse it looks for the IHH.
If Israel's blockade is illegal - and the IHH thought it was - then we're stuck with the "crazy gun with a gun" scenario, and expecting Israel to act rationally is step one towards getting oneself shot. Random, unaware people crossing the quad and getting blown away were truly innocent victims. What the IHH did was more like yelling, "Hey, whack-job! If you know what's good for you, you won't shoot as I cross the quad!" It's incredibly stupid and shifts some small part of the responsibility away from the nutcase. And it certainly doesn't matter that the nutcase has committed a crime by taking over the clock tower.
If Israel's blockade is legal, then the only way for there to be a peaceful resolution to any conflict at the blockade is to respect the blockade, which the IHH clearly had no intention of ever doing. Bulent Yildirim asserted that Israeli soldiers would be repelled, period. No qualifying clauses saying, "well, if they're a part of a peaceful inspection team, they'd be allowed on board." Their public statements indicate that even if Israel started behaving rationally, the IHH intended to run the blockade.
Regardless of whether the blockade is legal or not, Israel clearly thinks it is. With that in mind, is there any way for someone with a legal naval blockade to stop people who are determined to run it from doing so in a non-violent way? Every method of stopping a big boat (with or without boarding it) involves risk to those on board. If Israel had done nothing more than try to turn the ship with tugboats, causing someone to fall over and break an arm, Israel would be in no less of a public-relations nightmare than they are now. People like Gorgo would still be railing against Israel's brutality and accusing anyone who suggested that running the blockade was a stupid idea of falling for right-wing propaganda. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 21:27:45 [Permalink]
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Gorgo,
If you want to paint the Isrealis as heavy handed, I would suggest that you stick to the attack on the USS Liberty by Isreali forces.
This little dust up was provoked. There is some question as to whether there were shots fired from Hamas from one of the ships. (unlike the USS Liberty)
They intercepted this craft in international waters and could be viewed as an act of piracy. The idea of intercepting inbound ships to turn them away or board and inspect neutral shipping is not new by warring nations in international waters.
It doesn't make it any more right or wrong.
It was meant to stir up animosity between Turkey and Isreal. In that respect, the plan did work for the "relief" ships.
I think there are too many unknowns to make a real determination of what really happened. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Israeli blockade incident
