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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2010 : 13:24:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Strange really, It seems logical to me to assume that anyone who defines themselves as a Christian should automatically be assumed to conform to Christian ethical convictions. So the major problem seems to be that she dared to openly declare her convictions.
| The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since 2009, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct," |
This seems to be pretty outrageous, I don't see how an educational facility can demand that someone change their beliefs, what happened to freedom? You are free to believe what you like but don't expect an education? Is this how it works now?
Also I don't think she's very attractive, she has a man-jaw.
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I don't see the problem. What if it was a member of the KKK who is extremely open in his or her racism. These people have to work at a school one day, where they should be counseling children. If that KKK-member is openly racist, a black child will not feel comfortable in coming to him or her with problems. Thus, the racism of the KKK-member makes him unfit for the job of school counseler, unless he/she knows how to keep his beliefs to himself.
This is essentially the same situation.
I do agree with you that I don't think she is very attractive. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 07/28/2010 13:31:06 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 13:30:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
She isn't required to change her beliefs. She is required to shut up about them.
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| The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since 2009, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct," |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 13:34:19 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, I get a strong "Ann Coulter" vibe from her photo. |
I must be a glutton for punishment because I think Ann Coulter is hot too. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 13:45:48 [Permalink]
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| Imagine if you took the manjaw home, only to find out there was also a mangina. I think that would change your transgender views. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 13:54:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by tomk80
She isn't required to change her beliefs. She is required to shut up about them.
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| The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since 2009, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct," |
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You're right, I edited my post.
Still, I don't disagree with that. If she is as in your face about her beliefs as she seems to be from the description given in the article, she would not be fit to be a school counseler. Should the University be obliged to give someone a diploma for a job she is unfit to peform? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 14:02:21 [Permalink]
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| Yeah they might as well put a sign on the door that says "No Christians". |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 14:21:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Yeah they might as well put a sign on the door that says "No Christians".
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No. Just "Homophobic Christians, leave your beliefs at the door." First, there are quite a few Christian denominations that have no problem with homosexual behavior, even a number that allow gay marriage. Second, if a Christian doesn't comment on whether he thinks it is right or wrong to show homosexual behavior, there is no problem. The school would also have way to gauge this belief in this case, unless they monitored behavior in private settings.
Basically, the problem here is that a kid will have to be able to go to a school counseler if he has emotional issues. This kid will not be helped with a Holier-than-thou-Christian telling him: "Your behavior is wrong and you are going to hell." If the counseler behaves that way, he or she is unfit to be a counseler.
From the article, it seems clear to me that she was very vocal in how gays and lesbians should behave on campus and in assignments. If she starts working as a counseler, it is not her place to make those comments. She should have realized that.
And if that excludes some people, well tough. I don't have a steady hand so I can't become a surgeon. She can't listen to a kid with problems without condemning the kid, so she can't be a counseler. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 14:30:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Should the University be obliged to give someone a diploma for a job she is unfit to peform?
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Has she shown herself to be unfit? Based on what? I would like to know if when she applied for the program if there was anywhere that said that if you have certain moral beliefs you will have to take extra classes or be expelled?
The University said this:
| In a statement to FoxNews.com, Augusta State University officials declined to comment specifically on the litigation, but said the university does not discriminate on the basis of students' moral, religious, political or personal views or beliefs. |
Then says:
| The university has told Jennifer Keeton that if she doesn't change her beliefs, she can't stay in the program," he told FoxNews.com. "She won't even have a chance to counsel any students; she won't have a chance to get a counseling degree; she'll be expelled." |
Sounds like they are discriminating based on beliefs. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 14:33:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
I don't see the problem. What if it was a member of the KKK who is extremely open in his or her racism. These people have to work at a school one day, where they should be counseling children. If that KKK-member is openly racist, a black child will not feel comfortable in coming to him or her with problems. Thus, the racism of the KKK-member makes him unfit for the job of school counseler, unless he/she knows how to keep his beliefs to himself.
This is essentially the same situation.
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So you are ok with expelling someone based on what someone thinks they might do? She has not discriminated against anyone yet. They are expelling her because they think she might not be a good counsler not based on actual discrimnination she has done. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 14:36:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Basically, the problem here is that a kid will have to be able to go to a school counseler if he has emotional issues. This kid will not be helped with a Holier-than-thou-Christian telling him: "Your behavior is wrong and you are going to hell." If the counseler behaves that way, he or she is unfit to be a counseler. |
Yes but she has not done this yet. You and the school just think she might.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 15:05:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
[quote]Originally posted by tomk80
So you are ok with expelling someone based on what someone thinks they might do? She has not discriminated against anyone yet. They are expelling her because they think she might not be a good counsler not based on actual discrimnination she has done.
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Reading the complaint, it seems to go a bit further than that. One of the complaints is that: "Faculty have also received unsolicited reports from another student that [Miss Keeton] has relayed her interest in conversion therapy for GLBTQ populations, and she has tried to convince other students to support and believe her views."
This is a therapy that is at best ineffective and possibly harmful. To me, this is a first indicator that she might try to nudge a kid under her care in that direction. Yes, I think that with these kinds of professions, extra care needs to be taken to try and prevent harm. As far as I can read in the complaint (and this is of course only her side of the story), there are significant indicators that she might be unqualified to deal with these kind of problems in a professional manner.
Furthermore, in class discussions she stated her beliefs that homosexuality and trans-sexuality is a life-style choice rather than inborn. This is despite the scientific evidence to the contrary. For me, for a school counseler to say something like that is equivalent to a biology teacher loudly adhering to creationism. And yes, I think that someone like that is not fit for the job he or she is required to do à priori.
She has to work with vulnerable pupils when she graduates and as described in the complaint, her teachers saw multiple indications that she might not be qualified to work with these kids and showed behavior not in line with the ethical guidelines to which she has to adhere. They and proposed a remedial that brought her in extensive contact with the peer-reviewed literature on the subject and the populations concerned. It seems to me that in these cases, the possible repercussions for the kids should be the main concern over the student's (and later counseler's) right to free speech. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 15:22:26 [Permalink]
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And reading further, this is the crux of the issue:
"I know there is often a difference between personal beliefs and how a counseling situation should be handled. But in order to finish the counseling program you are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation."
Basically, the discussions between the student and her supervisors concerned whether she would go along with the clients behavior while in a counseling session. In other words, she should not state in a counseling session that the behavior that a client is portraying on these issues is immoral. She stated herself that she would not be able to do that, That she had to point out during the session that according to her that behavior was immoral. She was expelled because she herself stated that if the situation would come up, she would not act in the way expected of her as a counseler.
To put it another way, the school did not ask her to alter her beliefs, but to affirm the beliefs of her client during a counseling session. She stated that she would not be able to do that. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 07/28/2010 15:24:33 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 15:33:15 [Permalink]
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Summary of my previous logorrhea
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by tomk80
Basically, the problem here is that a kid will have to be able to go to a school counseler if he has emotional issues. This kid will not be helped with a Holier-than-thou-Christian telling him: "Your behavior is wrong and you are going to hell." If the counseler behaves that way, he or she is unfit to be a counseler. |
Yes but she has not done this yet. You and the school just think she might.
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The problem is that she herself has basically said she would do just that.
edited to add bolded part |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 07/28/2010 15:34:23 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 16:15:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
"Faculty have also received unsolicited reports from another student that [Miss Keeton] has relayed her interest in conversion therapy for GLBTQ populations... |
She promoted conversion therapy? Ok, that definitely crosses the ethical line. She is unfit to hold a counseling position. Goodbye and don't let the door hit you in ass.
Robb, this isn't about holding beliefs, but about proselytizing them in totally inappropriate situations. The story was relayed through Fox News, so we should expect a great deal of embellishment and a boilerplate "poor persecuted Christian" slant. |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/28/2010 16:18:31 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 16:41:03 [Permalink]
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Yeah, if she just wanted to keep believing that the people she counsels were going to hell, it would have been clearly illegal for a state college to demand she do otherwise. But since she's claiming that she intends to tell her clients that they're going to hell (more or less), that's very different. She's basically saying that she's going to use her position to proselytize, just like she did to her fellow students, already.
I was sympathetic on a First Amendment basis at the beginning of reading about this. Now, not so much. She can't get a counseling job with any government-run school with that attitude. It'd be illegal for her to counsel anyone if she's going to talk about her faith during a session.
And that photo gives me the willies. She's got dead eyes. I'd deny her a counseling certificate based on the fact that she's going to creep out too many people. I'd want her clients to need less therapy, not more. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Expelled for being a homophobe?
