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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2010 : 04:37:42
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And those of us who don't know it will soon figure it out. I have little doubt that Darwin groked it not long after arriving at the Galapagos Archipelago, the evidence all but hitting him up 'side his head.
New scientific research suggests Darwin may have been wrong
by Chris in Paris on 8/24/2010 03:31:00 AM
And it's real science, as opposed to the wacko-Christian-right rubbish that disputes Darwin. More research will be required but it's an interesting challenge to the well known theory. BBC:
The new study proposes that really big evolutionary changes happen when animals move into empty areas of living space, not occupied by other animals.
For example, when birds evolved the ability to fly, that opened up a vast range of new possibilities not available to other animals. Suddenly the skies were the limit, triggering a new evolutionary burst.
The extinction of the dinosaurs gave mammals their lucky break.
This concept challenges the idea that intense competition for resources in overcrowded habitats is the major driving force of evolution. |
The BBC article goes in a little deeper.
Actually, fierce competition for living space will certainly spark evolutionary change, but wide open spaces are better. They give populations of species room to stretch their legs, as it were; sometimes in odd ways.
No, no it ain't a turtle. It's a Pleistocene mammal.
What happens is, as a population moves into an uncompetitive environment, certain of them will begin to specialize, taking advantage of certain aspects of it. Over time, form fits the function even to the point of speciation. The animal pictured is an ancient relative of modern armadillos that shifted into evolutionary high gear as soon as there was a dearth of hungry dinosaurs. But it too, went extinct, demonstrating that if a species gets too specialized, evolution might well kill it off, allowing something more resilient to exploit it's niche.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 05:03:10 [Permalink]
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| I can't stand Eitheror syndrome, you are correct Filthy there are many ways to evolve. Also since when is this a new idea? Gould is rolling over about now no doubt. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:00:04 [Permalink]
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| Yeah.....nothing new or surprising here. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
 Posted - 08/24/2010 : 11:24:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Yeah.....nothing new or surprising here.
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Ditto. I think any amateur naturalist who's had the time to think has probably come up with this idea before, and not as something that works in isolation from competition. Galapagos finches were able to exploit a lot of untouched resources at the end of their unscheduled migration, but they were also competing with each other. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2010 : 13:46:02 [Permalink]
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Yeah, the idea that a change in environment drives evolution is certainly not new. Also, that BBC article is stupidly annoying. Survival of the fittest, as put forth by Darwin, means only that that a species best adapted to a specific environment will flourish, while less well adapted species will not do as well. It's not some titanic battle royal between squirrels and beavers over who gets the freaking tree.... it is so often misunderstood, and obviously still frequently misrepresented in the media.
Adaptive radiation is established science, and this "news" is not really news.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 05:52:05 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by DudeSurvival of the fittest, as put forth by Darwin, means only that that a species best adapted to a specific environment will flourish, while less well adapted species will not do as well. It's not some titanic battle royal between squirrels and beavers over who gets the freaking tree.... it is so often misunderstood, and obviously still frequently misrepresented in the media. |
I've heard that it is actually an indicator of reproductive success, those who leave the most offspring are the 'fittest'. And the term originated with Herbert Spencer, not Darwin. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 07:50:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Darwin didn't like the phrase "survival of the fittest" at all.
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I don't beleive you Dave. Please cite your source for that information. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 09:49:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I don't beleive you Dave. Please cite your source for that information. |
Huh. Apparently, that information is dead wrong:In the first four editions of On the Origin of Species, Darwin used the phrase "natural selection". Darwin wrote on page 6 of The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication published in 1868, "This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess any advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural Selection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the Survival of the Fittest. The term "natural selection" is in some respects a bad one, as it seems to imply conscious choice; but this will be disregarded after a little familiarity". Darwin agreed with Alfred Russel Wallace that this new phrase — "survival of the fittest" — avoided the troublesome anthropomorphism of "selecting", though it "lost the analogy between nature's selection and the fanciers'". In Chapter 4 of the 5th edition of The Origin published in 1869, Darwin implies again the synonym: "Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest". By the word "fittest" Darwin meant "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common modern meaning of "in the best physical shape". In the introduction he gave full credit to Spencer, writing "I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection, in order to mark its relation to man's power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer of the Survival of the Fittest is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient." Footnotes omitted. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 10:12:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I don't beleive you Dave. Please cite your source for that information. |
Huh. Apparently, that information is dead wrong:In the first four editions of On the Origin of Species, Darwin used the phrase "natural selection". Darwin wrote on page 6 of The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication published in 1868, "This preservation, during the battle for life, of varieties which possess any advantage in structure, constitution, or instinct, I have called Natural Selection; and Mr. Herbert Spencer has well expressed the same idea by the Survival of the Fittest. The term "natural selection" is in some respects a bad one, as it seems to imply conscious choice; but this will be disregarded after a little familiarity". Darwin agreed with Alfred Russel Wallace that this new phrase — "survival of the fittest" — avoided the troublesome anthropomorphism of "selecting", though it "lost the analogy between nature's selection and the fanciers'". In Chapter 4 of the 5th edition of The Origin published in 1869, Darwin implies again the synonym: "Natural Selection, or the Survival of the Fittest". By the word "fittest" Darwin meant "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common modern meaning of "in the best physical shape". In the introduction he gave full credit to Spencer, writing "I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection, in order to mark its relation to man's power of selection. But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer of the Survival of the Fittest is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient." Footnotes omitted.
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 Woo Hoo! I was finally right for once! Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn once in a while. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 10:28:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Woo Hoo! I was finally right for once! Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn once in a while. |
You get a cookie. You'll find it on your hard drive. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2010 : 15:46:19 [Permalink]
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I've scooped PZ again! Although in his defense, he's currently in hospital getting his heart hot-patched. I wish him every bit of luck with that....
Evidently, I've scooped HuffPo as well -- hooray for me!
Curl up and die already, HuffPo
Category: Evolution • Media
Posted on: August 25, 2010 10:45 AM, by PZ Myers
Jebus, but I despise that fluffy, superficial, Newagey site run by the flibbertigibbet Ariana. I will not be linking to it, but if you must, you can just search for this recent article: "Darwin May Have Been WRONG, New Study Argues". I don't recommend it. It sucks. Read the title, and you've already got the false sensationalism of the whole story down cold.
It's actually an old and familiar story that doesn't upset any applecarts at all. There is a well-known concept in evolutionary theory of an adaptive radiation: a lineage acquires a new trait (birds evolve flight, for instance), or an extinction removes all competition and creates an opportunity for expansion (the dinosaurs are wiped out and mammals expand rapidly into vacant niches), and presto, new species and diversity abounds. For a really obvious example of this phenomenon, look to Darwin's finches: one or a few species are storm-blown to an isolated chain of islands, and they gradually speciate to take on many roles.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 06:46:50 [Permalink]
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And here it is, right on time. From AiG's Nooze to Note, third article down:
Was Charles Darwin wrong?
A few headlines this week have made the claim, but the news isn’t anything that will thrill creationists.
Darwin’s big error, according to a new study published in Biology Letters, was in arguing that competition between organisms is the most important force in evolution. The idea—often cast as “survival of the fittest”—is that in a dog-eat-dog world of scarce resources, carnivory, disease, and other dangers, all but the most fit will be killed off. This constant competition and the elimination of less fit (“less evolved”) species, the argument goes, moves evolution forward.
But the new study emphasizes the role of an organism’s “living space,” which includes the overall availability of food as well as the size of a population’s habitat. When an animal group gains access to new living space—especially an area unoccupied by other animals—evolution kicks into high gear. The team, led by the University of Bristol’s Sarda Sahney, came to the conclusion from a study of fossil diversity.
As an example, the team points to the supposed evolutionary rise of mammals, which happened as the dinosaurs died off (thereby vacating their “living space”). Team member Mike Benton explains,
“Even though mammals lived beside dinosaurs for 60 million years, they were not able to out-compete the dominant reptiles. But when the dinosaurs went extinct, mammals quickly filled the empty niches they left and today mammals dominate the land.”
While the theory is academically interesting, the scientists have presupposed evolution—interpreting fossil history as a record of millions of years of evolution, rather than as (largely) the record of a single, catastrophic, earth-wide Flood year. Beyond that, the connection between an organism’s living space and its diversity can be explained more concisely as the working of natural selection combined with an understanding of genetics—principles that both evolutions and creationists accept and that can be observed in the present.
Finally, as we mentioned above, a few media outlets had headlines with somewhat irresponsible wording, claiming, vaguely, that “Darwin was wrong.” While a cursory examination shows that the research has nothing to do with the creation/evolution controversy, the headlines were objectionable enough for a blog response from the National Center for Science Education’s Steven Newton. He uses the media flap as an occasion to take a swipe at Answers in Genesis, claiming (as if we would agree) that we attack evolution “for reasons outside of science.”
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The boys at Answers(?) are as disappointed with the stupid article as we are, albeit for different reasons. Ya gotta love their relatively new "presuppositions" meme. It's a really neat word that can cast a pall of doubt over anything, however well researched it might be. I myself claim that the entire Book Of Genesis can only be supported by the most outrageous of presuppositions.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 07:58:41 [Permalink]
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| "Presupposition," or "prejudice," it's all the same thing. The AiG folks have minds like a steel trap: Tightly closed and inescapable. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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We already knew this…
