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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2010 :  22:39:18  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fortunately, my wife and I were among those randomly selected to take the Don't Ask, Don't Tell survey.

Unfortunately, we were both quite appalled about the bias of the questions. We will be contacting the survey contractor and the military committee responsible for the survey.

Here is a copy of my survey, and here is a copy of my wife's.

I am not sure if this is an attempt to bias the results in order to delay the repeal of DADT, or if this is a poor attempt to find out the extent of prejudice in military families in order to better allocate funds to family support centers to facilitate integration. Sadly, I suspect the former.

Either way, it is a horrible survey and those responsible should be ashamed of themselves.

Notice some of the gems:
How important a factor would a repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell be to you in making decisions about your spouse's future in the military?
Why would this matter? If somebody gets out of the military because of "the gays" will they think there are no homosexuals in a civilian job?
Assume Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed and you live in on-base housing. If a gay or lesbian Service member lived in your neighborhood with their partner, would you stay on-base or would you try to move out?
That's stupid. Somebody would move out in town where there a similar chance of a homosexual neighbor? My wife wants to know if they'll be able to find a "heteros only" gated community. Morons.
Assume Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed. If the partner of a gay or lesbian Service member participated in a family support program, would it affect your participation?
If a black person participated in a family support program would it affect your participation?
Assume Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed. Would the attendance of a gay or lesbian Service member with his or her partner affect how often you attend ... military social events?
.
.
.
Assume Don't Ask, Don't Tell is repealed and your spouse is deployed. Would the presence of a partner of a gay or lesbian Service member affect how often you attend deployment-support activities?
I don't know what to say about these except, "really?"

The survey contractor is a company named Westat

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  08:09:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like how the questionnaire asks servicemen and servicewomen to rate the performance of military leaders they believe to be be gay. WTF? Talk about a biased question. Since gays can't serve openly, people are invited to speculate on other people's sexuality and judge them according to their own subjective assignments. Lovely. I guess they must feel DADT is a totally ineffective policy since it's easy to spot the gays even when they're in the closet.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/13/2010 08:10:56
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  08:36:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow.... that section of the survey is pathetic....

You almost have to suspect some devious motive behind the bias in those questions.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  09:53:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, there was a troop survey conducted by the Pentagon prior to military racial integration in the 1940s:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/38372891#38372891

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  13:19:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
boron:

Why would this matter? If somebody gets out of the military because of "the gays" will they think there are no homosexuals in a civilian job?


Working with a gay person where you sit side by side in a fox hole for several days is a lot different from working in the cubicle across from then. It can affect a person differently. The survey is just trying to measure this affect.

That's stupid. Somebody would move out in town where there a similar chance of a homosexual neighbor? My wife wants to know if they'll be able to find a "heteros only" gated community. Morons.


Just because something is stupid doesn't mean there won't be stupid people who try it out. The military is simply trying to find out how many stupid people there are.

If a black person participated in a family support program would it affect your participation?


How is this not a fair question? Clearly it's wrong to be affected by such a thing, but there are just as clearly many wrong people who serve in our military (or any job for that matter). It's wrong to try to find out how many of them there are?

HH:

I like how the questionnaire asks servicemen and servicewomen to rate the performance of military leaders they believe to be be gay.


Since DADT is currently in effect, I would have to imagine that not many people openly admit they are gay in the military. The surveyors are trying to get an idea of how current personal believe homosexuality affects job performance. Do you have a better way to word the question? I can't think of any.

I guess they must feel DADT is a totally ineffective policy since it's easy to spot the gays even when they're in the closet.


Huh? DADT wasn't meant to eliminate all homosexuals from the military, only the ones who engage in homosexual acts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one can still be flamboyant and in the military (at least legally).

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  18:24:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky
Since DADT is currently in effect, I would have to imagine that not many people openly admit they are gay in the military. The surveyors are trying to get an idea of how current personal believe homosexuality affects job performance.
But that's my point. Because gay people aren't able to serve openly in the military, there's no possible way for servicemen or women to have an opinion on how gay people perform. More than likely they worked under a gay person without ever being aware of it.

Do you have a better way to word the question? I can't think of any.
No, because it's a stupid question based on a totally flawed premise. It has nothing to do with it's wording.

DADT wasn't meant to eliminate all homosexuals from the military, only the ones who engage in homosexual acts.
No, homosexuals are not allowed to serve in the military, period. Not even "chaste" ones. The only difference that the DADT policy introduced was that the military wouldn't actively seek to identify homosexuals. That's the "don't ask" part. The "don't tell" part, however, means that if one's homosexuality is revealed for any reason--even against one's wishes--they will be discharged. If it is known that you are gay, you can't serve. No exceptions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one can still be flamboyant and in the military (at least legally).
Are you saying that gay people can be identified by how "flamboyant" they are? Do you have any idea how offensive that is? I doubt any homosexuals currently serving in the military and wishing to stay there are very flamboyant. That's also why the question is offensive, because it assumes you can identify a gay person by their personality or behavior even when they keep their sexuality a secret. You can't, and the suggestion that you can is offensive.

That's why I sarcastically suggested that they considered DADT a failure, since if it's possible to identify gays who aren't "out" then the "don't tell" portion of the policy becomes meaningless. It would be impossible to keep one's homosexuality a secret.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/13/2010 18:26:22
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2010 :  23:04:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

Working with a gay person where you sit side by side in a fox hole for several days is a lot different from working in the cubicle across from then. It can affect a person differently. The survey is just trying to measure this affect.
I see your point; however, I have worked in both the civilian and military sectors and don't see much of a difference.
Just because something is stupid doesn't mean there won't be stupid people who try it out. The military is simply trying to find out how many stupid people there are.
I guess one of my problems I have here is that a certain number would lie about it. As I said, one possibility is that the survey is an attempt to determine how to allocate assets to support the transition. I fear the other option.
Huh? DADT wasn't meant to eliminate all homosexuals from the military, only the ones who engage in homosexual acts.
Just like if the military were to outlaw acts of worship but not the religion? Then publish a survey asking if people would quit and move if the religion were legalized?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but one can still be flamboyant and in the military (at least legally).
I am told that the way the law is written, specific acts of homosexuality are excusable as long as they are only experimentation! So even acting gay is ok as long as you're not really gay.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  05:28:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Are you saying that gay people can be identified by how "flamboyant" they are? Do you have any idea how offensive that is? I doubt any homosexuals currently serving in the military and wishing to stay there are very flamboyant. That's also why the question is offensive, because it assumes you can identify a gay person by their personality or behavior even when they keep their sexuality a secret. You can't, and the suggestion that you can is offensive.


I don't believe anyone was suggesting that all homosexuals can be identified by sight/mannerisms.

Not sure what planet you live on, but there are plenty of gay men/women who just can't hide it.

I'm sure you have never ever thought "I didn't see THAT coming!" after some famous person came out of the closet.(Cough) Elton John(Cough)

Sterotypes usually exist because many folks fit them to a tee.
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  08:28:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, stereotypes exist because many folks fit the tee to them.

2: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment


From Merriam Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stereotype?show=1&t=1284477217

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  09:07:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I don't believe anyone was suggesting that all homosexuals can be identified by sight/mannerisms.

Not sure what planet you live on, but there are plenty of gay men/women who just can't hide it.
They can all hide it if they want to. In countries like Iran, where homosexuality is a death sentence, do you really think gays can't stop themselves them from "acting gay?" Behavior is a choice. Many gays, because they couldn't be open about their sexuality, adopted certain mannerisms for signaling purposes. It's intentional. And femininity or masculinity alone isn't indicative of anything, since plenty of effeminate men are heterosexual males and plenty of tomboy women are heterosexual females.

Honestly, the idea that you can "spot a gay" is ignorant and backward. You can spot the ones who want to be spotted. But for homosexuals in America who live in a culture where homosexuality is unacceptable, like within fundamentalist Christian circles (Ted Haggard), Republicans (Ken Mehlman), pro sports (Esera Tuaolo), or the military, there's no way to know unless they come out or get caught in the act.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/14/2010 09:11:59
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  11:15:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So with your extensive knowedge of Iranian legal precedent you are sure no homosexuals have been identified by mannerisms in Iran?

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  11:46:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

So with your extensive knowedge of Iranian legal precedent you are sure no homosexuals have been identified by mannerisms in Iran?
I don't know whether Iran relies on mannerisms to identify homosexuals, but I can guarantee that if they do they're using a baseless metric which has certainly led to false identifications.

I don't know why you would defend this ignorance. There's no way to come out of this looking good. You really should quit while you're behind.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  12:04:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know how you could be so absolute in your defense, there are always exceptions. Oh and take your high and mighty attitude and shove it.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  12:23:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Oh and take your high and mighty attitude and shove it.
I'm only trying to help you keep from appearing like a neolithic asshat. But go ahead, spurn my council. I'm not the one defending ignorant stereotypes. You're free to go down that road if you choose.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  17:07:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meanwhile my uncle used to tell me all the time (I was a construction helper to him) He can always spot "teh fagz." And I can always tell which one of them is "the man and the woman." Since coming out, he doesn't say that to me any more. I am not sure if the sudden surprise that I was one of "teh fagz" cured him of making that stupid and bigoted assertion, but I do guess he thinks I am one of them who is "the man"...have to be, I was such a hard strong worker. So I doubt he is fully cured of his stupidity and bigotry. Too bad society mores requires me to don't ask, and rather assume he is now a kind and enlightened human.
Edited by - chefcrsh on 09/14/2010 17:10:14
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2010 :  18:44:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Oh and take your high and mighty attitude and shove it.
I'm only trying to help you keep from appearing like a neolithic asshat. But go ahead, spurn my council. I'm not the one defending ignorant stereotypes. You're free to go down that road if you choose.




Actually, Big Papa has this one correct.

There are people, who if they came out to you, you'd say "what took you so long?"

I have met a great many homosexuals of both sexes and while you cannot tell the great majority of them, there are some who scream it from the rafters. The "flaming" or "screaming" ones come to mind. These are the ones that even gay people think are a little over the top. A real foppish, limp wristed characture of reality that some people use as an external persona.

For instance, George Takei. Saw that one coming a mile away. Took guts for him to come out considering the culture he was raised in.

Elton John. Yeah, no clues there, eh Capt Fantastic?

Jeff Gordon. OK, that one is just a joke to piss of Jeff Gordon fans. :)


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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