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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  09:30:28  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...and I'm kind of looking forward to the fallout.

Over the weekend while hanging out with the in-laws we got into a couple of different discussions. First my brother-in-law and I were discussing putting an Island music band together. He mentioned that we should learn a couple of worship songs. Off-the-cuff I mentioned how I often considered putting together a Christian Rock band because the audience would have to like us and we could make lots of money off them. Right at the moment I said " I've often considerd putting together a Christian Rock band" my mother and father-in-law got big wide eyes and big smiles and exclaimed " REALLY!!" They were dissapointed once they learned of my ulterior motives which made me kinda giggle inside.

Secondly.....and just so you know I love my in-laws dearly and I do feel a teeny bit bad talking about them behind their backs but this is the only place in the world that I have to do so. A little background...my in-laws are rabid fans of lame-ass Christian movies like Fireproof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireproof_ film and Facing The Giants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facing_the_Giants . Really, my SIL, BIL, MIL, and FIL will go on and on and on about how these movies "teach such valuable life lessons". My only reaction is to sit there and think to myself " Of all the years of living you people have done it takes a cheezy low budget movie to teach you that hard work and dedication = success and that being considerate of your spouse will make your marriage stronger". I guess I shouldn't really judge because people learn in their own ways.
But anywhoooo they were talking about this new film they had watched that is produced by one of the local Megachurches. It is a pastor who came up with a humorous routine about how men and women think differently. They are very excited about it and kind of insisted that my wife and I take it and watch it. I'm all for it and I will give it a look, my wife on the other hand has no interest in the subject matter.

I am looking forward to viewing the film and discussing it with them. It will give me a chance to actually articulate my critical thinking in a real life situation rather then just opining to strangers on the internet.

Side note. I am becoming increasingly disturbed by the lack of basic historical knowledge that my in law family has. I found out this weekend that none of them had any idea about any kind of Jewish persecution that has happened over the last 2000 years...including WWII !!! I rally don't know what to make of it. How can people who are college educated not have any idea that the Nazis killed Jews in WWII...and seemingly never heard of such a thing?

Thoughts?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  09:40:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
How can people who are college educated not have any idea that the Nazis killed Jews in WWII...and seemingly never heard of such a thing?
Yeah, that sounds...unlikely. Maybe they have heard of the Jewish holocaust but dismiss it as exaggeration and propaganda.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  09:53:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My initial thought is that Christianity rots the mind. And I am only half joking when I say that.

More seriously, reading and talking with people who are Christian, American or both has opened my eye to two basic ignorances, ignorance through religion and ignorance through nationalism.

Christians (more specifically Christian Fundamentalists) often show an unwillingness to face reality. Rejection of scientific theories like evolution is a very visible component of this. But it goes deeper. Read some Christian film reviews for hilarious examples of this. One reviewer was complaining about the film Ray (the biography of Ray Charles), because it contained so much adultery and drug abuse and that the moral message only came at the end of the movie. Yes, it's a film about the life of Ray Charles, idiot! He made great music, slept with every beautiful girl he came across and did drugs. What did you expect? Really, read Christian movie reviews, you will not be disappointed. It is a symptom of something endemic in Christianity, namely trying to shelter yourself and others from the bad things that happen in the world.

Then there is American nationalism. After you said your pledge of allegiance in front of the flag like good little Nazi youth (sorry, couldn't resist), you get taught a sanitized version of history where the USA is great and practically the only country in existence. Other countries are there purely because you cannot have so much land with having some people plant a flag on it and Americans need other countries to rescue. Very much analogous to a superman film, with a one-dimensional hero without character flaws and flat supporting characters who only serve to let the hero shine out. And a few bad guys (Nazi Germany, Russia). Now, I know this is an overstatement, but from what I have seen of American history curricula compared to those of my own country or those surrounding me (France, Belgium, Germany) it is decidedly one-sided and USA-centered.

Oh yeah, and people are generally stupid and ignorant of course.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  10:24:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you get taught a sanitized version of history


I was just thinking to myself the other day how I wished that the U.S. government worked like I was taught in high school....a bunch of happy senators and congressmen going to work every morning to make sure their constituents were well represented. The Democrats and Republicans happily compromising to make things all right with the country.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  16:38:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

I rally don't know what to make of it. How can people who are college educated not have any idea that the Nazis killed Jews in WWII...and seemingly never heard of such a thing?

Thoughts?

A bit more of a reach, but along those some lines about what people know and don't know. I saw the following on a friends FB wall.
If it is true that the mosque near Ground Zero is to promote tolerance .... It was suggested that a gay nightclub be opened next door to the mosque .... Two names suggested are "The Turban Cowboy" and "You Mecca Me Hot"
A couple of times I have paraphrased this and included just "You Mecca Me Hot" as the name of the night club. My wife was familiar with Mecca, but a friend was not. I'm guessing that most non-muslims would not be familiar with Mecca.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2010 :  19:05:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

...and I'm kind of looking forward to the fallout.

Over the weekend while hanging out with the in-laws we got into a couple of different discussions. First my brother-in-law and I were discussing putting an Island music band together. He mentioned that we should learn a couple of worship songs. Off-the-cuff I mentioned how I often considered putting together a Christian Rock band because the audience would have to like us and we could make lots of money off them. Right at the moment I said " I've often considerd putting together a Christian Rock band" my mother and father-in-law got big wide eyes and big smiles and exclaimed " REALLY!!" They were dissapointed once they learned of my ulterior motives which made me kinda giggle inside.

Secondly.....and just so you know I love my in-laws dearly and I do feel a teeny bit bad talking about them behind their backs but this is the only place in the world that I have to do so. A little background...my in-laws are rabid fans of lame-ass Christian movies like Fireproof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireproof_ film and Facing The Giants http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facing_the_Giants . Really, my SIL, BIL, MIL, and FIL will go on and on and on about how these movies "teach such valuable life lessons". My only reaction is to sit there and think to myself " Of all the years of living you people have done it takes a cheezy low budget movie to teach you that hard work and dedication = success and that being considerate of your spouse will make your marriage stronger". I guess I shouldn't really judge because people learn in their own ways.
But anywhoooo they were talking about this new film they had watched that is produced by one of the local Megachurches. It is a pastor who came up with a humorous routine about how men and women think differently. They are very excited about it and kind of insisted that my wife and I take it and watch it. I'm all for it and I will give it a look, my wife on the other hand has no interest in the subject matter.

I am looking forward to viewing the film and discussing it with them. It will give me a chance to actually articulate my critical thinking in a real life situation rather then just opining to strangers on the internet.

Side note. I am becoming increasingly disturbed by the lack of basic historical knowledge that my in law family has. I found out this weekend that none of them had any idea about any kind of Jewish persecution that has happened over the last 2000 years...including WWII !!! I rally don't know what to make of it. How can people who are college educated not have any idea that the Nazis killed Jews in WWII...and seemingly never heard of such a thing?

Thoughts?



Sometimes, megachurches want the past to not exist. It interferes with their "USA is a Christian nation" and "Christianity is the way of real peace".

They don't consider any persecution done by non-Christians to be persecution at all. By extention, they do not consider Catholics as Christian. (They will also discount the Branch Davidians and Heaven's Gate as not "real" Christians.)

Since they sound like Prodestants, perhaps you could suggest that they pick up a document written by Martin Luther himself. The leader of the Reformation and founder of Prodestantism wrote a cute little document called "On the Jews and their Lies" in 1532. In which he calls for forced conversions and the destruction of synogauges.

Oftentimes, followers of Megachurches will be fed a littany of misinformation (the Jewish holacaust never happened. Not enough graves, impossible to kill 13.5 million people without raising the attention of the "{good" populace who would rise up to save them, etc.) and also a littany of misinformation about other religions and atheism. (They claim atheists deny the existance of God. Atheists say, you can't deny the existance of a theological construct that has no meaning to me.)


Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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TG
Skeptic Friend

USA
121 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  08:15:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send TG a Private Message  Reply with Quote
tomk80:
Then there is American nationalism. After you said your pledge of allegiance in front of the flag like good little Nazi youth (sorry, couldn't resist), you get taught a sanitized version of history where the USA is great and practically the only country in existence. Other countries are there purely because you cannot have so much land with having some people plant a flag on it and Americans need other countries to rescue. Very much analogous to a superman film, with a one-dimensional hero without character flaws and flat supporting characters who only serve to let the hero shine out. And a few bad guys (Nazi Germany, Russia). Now, I know this is an overstatement, but from what I have seen of American history curricula compared to those of my own country or those surrounding me (France, Belgium, Germany) it is decidedly one-sided and USA-centered.

Unfortunately, for the most part I have to agree. I've often wondered how the version of WWII taught to Japanese school children varies from that taught to their American counterparts. Probably sounds like a completely different war.

Tom
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2010 :  12:01:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by TG

tomk80:
Then there is American nationalism. After you said your pledge of allegiance in front of the flag like good little Nazi youth (sorry, couldn't resist), you get taught a sanitized version of history where the USA is great and practically the only country in existence. Other countries are there purely because you cannot have so much land with having some people plant a flag on it and Americans need other countries to rescue. Very much analogous to a superman film, with a one-dimensional hero without character flaws and flat supporting characters who only serve to let the hero shine out. And a few bad guys (Nazi Germany, Russia). Now, I know this is an overstatement, but from what I have seen of American history curricula compared to those of my own country or those surrounding me (France, Belgium, Germany) it is decidedly one-sided and USA-centered.

Unfortunately, for the most part I have to agree. I've often wondered how the version of WWII taught to Japanese school children varies from that taught to their American counterparts. Probably sounds like a completely different war.

Tom

Well, from what I heard the Japanese version is extremely sanitized. In debates on the internet I've seen quite the teenage, Japanese WWII apologists, arguing that it really wasn't their fault and they really had no other choice.

Germany goes the other way. They get taught WWII and their part in it to the smallest detail.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2010 :  19:20:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This really was not my experience in school. My parents have said they heard only pro-US arguments when they were in school (the know better thankfully), but I really didn't. Maybe it's the textbooks these days (5-10 years ago), I don't know.

I heard lots about Americans killing the natives, some about Japanese Americans being interned in WWII, of course the Holocaust via multiple novels in literature in addition to history class. Actually had some Vietnam vets come and tell us how they were "reprogrammed to kill" for that war (I actually never heard a pro-American argument in school for that war -- not that I'm justifying it). I learned of all of the major religions (just short overviews -- main tenets, names of the important texts and figures, etc), plenty of negativity about the Christian world in the Middle Ages.

And, hell, I came from the coalfields of West Virginia, very rural, almost exclusively Christian. I just don't believe my history/lit education was any better than most of the country (maybe except Texas ;)). These teachers didn't do much but tell us to read the textbooks and answer the questions built into them -- they actually kind of sucked, but at least we learned decent history from the books.

Maybe it's the churches spreading bullshit, or maybe students just aren't taught well and don't remember the stuff, but the material is there as far as I can tell (again, excluding perhaps the stupid textbooks getting passed out in Texas).

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus
Edited by - Machi4velli on 09/10/2010 19:21:59
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2010 :  21:06:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mach, you may very well have been in an atypical school system. Check out Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong, by James Loewen. I grew up in one of the top ten most well-funded school systems in the nation, and I got fed a lot of the garbage that Loewen details.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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