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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2010 :  14:38:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by tw101356

I got all 15.

I can now legitimately adopt a "more atheistic than thou" attitude.


Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2010 :  15:36:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy balls. I got them all right. To be fair though #15 was only answered correctly by default. I knew who the two incorrect people were and by default chose the correct one.

Are the Pew Forum people going to send me a prize now?

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2010 :  16:42:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

"Even after all these other factors, including education, are taken into account,,,,
I'd like to know what that really means.
It means that atheists and agnostics didn't know more about religion just because they'd had more formal schooling. When comparing people who only have high-school diplomas, atheists and agnostics still scored better than theists. Having more schooling leads to getting more of the survey questions correct (people with college degrees answered, on average, eight more questions correctly than people with only high-school diplomas or less), but once the researchers controlled for that factor, the atheists and agnostics still did better than the theists.

It could just mean that atheists and agnostics spend more time learning about religion instead of being steeped in it, perhaps because they have their Sundays free.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2010 :  17:34:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave:
It could just mean that atheists and agnostics spend more time learning about religion instead of being steeped in it, perhaps because they have their Sundays free.

Ha!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2010 :  17:48:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Got one wrong:
14. Which of these religions aims at nirvana, the state of being free from suffering?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2010 :  21:55:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

So atheists and agnostics just sucked a little less, but we still sucked. It's a good thing that we suck less, of course. But I think I'll put the champaign back in the fridge for now. Call me a party pooper.
Party pooper.
Here's the thing. What would the poll have looked like if those of us who identify as skeptics and are rather active and dare I say it, knowledgeable because of all of the research we do, were not included in the polls findings?
And I'd bet that the average Republican would do better on an IQ test than the average Democrat if we ignore all Democrats with an IQ over 50. Seriously, Kil, if you want to compare apples to apples, then Pew would need to exclude all the theists who spend their spare time doing Bible/Torah/Koran study. I mean, I would totally agree that an atheist who's literally never learned anything about religion would do worse on the survey than just about any theist who has been to church once, but why hobble the comparison of averages on purpose?
Just about everyone who said that they took the short version of the test, both here and on facebook, said they answered 14 out of 15 of the questions correctly. So something had to drag down the score. And it wasn't us.
Nobody is saying that all atheists know a lot about religion. The average score for atheists was higher than the average score for theists. Of course something dragged down the score: that something is people who are atheists because they really don't give a damn about religion, or dogmatically oppose religion and also religious trivia. The survey results suggests that the theists have more of those sorts of people than atheists do, because their averages are worse.
So for Dave Silverman to have said:

"I have heard many times that atheists know more about religion than religious people,"... "Atheism is an effect of that knowledge, not a lack of knowledge. I gave a Bible to my daughter. That's how you make atheists."

That's a pretty bold statement, considering that atheists and agnostics only answered 64.7% of the questions correctly.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, or maybe I am. Let me try this another way. There does seem to be a whole lot of dumbshit atheists and agnostics out there dragging down that score, contrary to what Mr. Silverman seems to believe, or we would have scored higher, don't you think?
No, I don't think so. I think Silverman thinks that many atheists become atheists because of their knowledge of religion, not that most or all do. All Silverman did was claim that religious study can lead to atheism, and so long as people say, "as a Christian, I thought I should read the Bible, but doing so made me lose my faith," he's right.

Beyond that: again, this is about averages. The survey results say that if you go around asking random atheists and theists the same set of religious questions, betting on the atheists will increase your money over time, and doing otherwise will make you slowly go broke.
Here's a thought. If we were to actually rid the world of religion, the average IQ will still be where it's at with most people falling somewhere above or below average. Eh?
Yes, the vast majority of people do not have the average IQ. Most people are at least a fraction of a point above or below the average. And most atheists would answer either more than 20.7 survey questions correctly, or less than 20.7 survey questions correctly (they'd all have to, since it's impossible for any individual to answer seven tenths of a question correctly). I don't understand why this matters, though.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  08:54:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my humble opinion the thought that the measuring of human intelligence and knowledge on world religions can somehow be correlated into truths regarding the theist vs. atheist debate is just incorrect thinking. When compared to the vast unknowns of the cosmos and beyond even the most intelligent/knowledgeable man to have ever lived on the planet, whether theist or atheist, would come up infinitely short when it comes to knowing all that there is to know. Pointing to some survey where a random atheist may know the 12 days of Hanukkah vs. some random Catholic guy who does not and then say "we win" is akin to a contest between a theist and an atheist to long jump over the Grand Canyon. Sure one may jump 15 ft before falling like a rock to the bottom and the other may only make it out there 10 feet before dropping, but can the one who jumped 15 feet really beat on his chest and claim victory?

The truth is that not a single one of us knows that our beliefs are truth. Based on many reasons we often like to act like we know but none of us truly knows. We just claim to know based on our own beliefs. That is why I find it silly when the two factions sit around and call each other stupid. This God vs. no god debate has been ongoing now for centuries. And over those centuries millions of very intelligent theists have come and gone who have contributed many great inventions and discoveries to the world while millions have also come and gone who were below average as far as human intelligence. Same can be said for atheists.

So again to point to one survey of human intellance where you squeak by the competition in overall general knowledge of the world's religions by a small margin and then claim "we win" in the God vs. no god debate when you still do not know that you do "win" I just find silly. The truth is we will not know until the day comes when our existence on this world comes to an end. Unless this is a completely materialistic existence and all that does exist was brought about by completely materialistic means, then I am afraid we will never know as our self-identity and all our knowledge will also cease to exist at the time our material existence is brought to an end. Without a physical body and with no soul nothing will remain in existence that will be capable of knowledge or intelligence to know that the atheist in fact "wins" in the end.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 10/01/2010 11:12:58
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  08:56:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't have time to respond fully, Dave. Maybe later. My point is that even those at the top of the survey did crappy, including atheists and agnostics. We may be the go-to for someone who wants a bit of general knowledge about world religions, but that isn't saying much when you actually consider our score. It's still a crapshoot if that person expects a correct answer from any old atheist.

I suppose that this is my reaction to all the back slapping that I saw on facebook and elsewhere. I'm only trying to bring some perspective to the actual results. It's cool that we top the list but it's nothing to write home about, as far as I can see. We sure didn't ace it...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  09:12:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
originally posted by Bill Scott
The truth is that not a single one of us knows that our beliefs are truth. Based on many reasons we often like to act like we know but none of us truly knows. We just claim to know based on our own beliefs. That is why I find it silly when the two factions sit around and call each other stupid.


Ah but Bill, atheists do not claim to have beliefs or all of the answers..that is a trait that theists share. I can surely say though that some sort of God the least likely answer to the mysteries of the universe.
Just because no one has all of the answers and never will is no reason for " God done it" to be the answer by default.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  09:14:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil


I suppose that this is my reaction to all the back slapping that I saw on facebook and elsewhere. I'm only trying to bring some perspective to the actual results. It's cool that we top the list but it's nothing to write home about, as far as I can see. We sure didn't ace it...


Yeah, you are a party pooper.


Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  09:52:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock



Ah but Bill, atheists do not claim to have beliefs


But the reality is they do have beliefs, whether they claim to or not.


or all of the answers..that is a trait that theists share


I fully acknowledge that it is my belief that God did it, with regards to the creation and all that exists which previously did not exist.



I can surely say though that some sort of God the least likely answer to the mysteries of the universe.


And that is your belief.


Just because no one has all of the answers and never will is no reason for " God done it" to be the answer by default.


While I can not speak for all theist my "God done it" conclusion was certainly not arrived at by default. Shoot, we have the very creation itself testify in favor of an infinite creator.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 10/01/2010 10:20:49
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  10:11:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Originally posted by Kil


I suppose that this is my reaction to all the back slapping that I saw on facebook and elsewhere. I'm only trying to bring some perspective to the actual results. It's cool that we top the list but it's nothing to write home about, as far as I can see. We sure didn't ace it...


Yeah, you are a party pooper.





Party pooper or realist but let's not split hairs here.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  12:17:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Bill scott

In my humble opinion the thought that the measuring of human intelligence and knowledge on world religions can somehow be correlated into truths regarding the theist vs. atheist debate is just incorrect thinking.
Well, of course you need to build a straw man out of this.
Sure one may jump 15 ft before falling like a rock to the bottom and the other may only make it out there 10 feet before dropping, but can the one who jumped 15 feet really beat on his chest and claim victory?
Sounds like you're the kind of guy who would laugh at the Paralympics.
The truth is that not a single one of us knows that our beliefs are truth. Based on many reasons we often like to act like we know but none of us truly knows. We just claim to know based on our own beliefs. That is why I find it silly when the two factions sit around and call each other stupid.
I take it this is a new "finding" of yours, since in the past you've spent a lot of time here calling all sorts of people stupid.
So again to point to one survey of human intellance where you squeak by the competition in overall general knowledge of the world's religions by a small margin and then claim "we win" in the God vs. no god debate when you still do not know that you do "win" I just find silly.
Of course you find your straw man silly. You fabricated it to be silly, and so it is. Certainly nobody around here has made even the merest hint that the results of this survey have any implications regarding the "God vs. no god debate," so unless you're talking about some other people and didn't bother to mention that, then you're just making shit up.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  12:26:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I don't have time to respond fully, Dave. Maybe later. My point is that even those at the top of the survey did crappy, including atheists and agnostics. We may be the go-to for someone who wants a bit of general knowledge about world religions, but that isn't saying much when you actually consider our score. It's still a crapshoot if that person expects a correct answer from any old atheist.

I suppose that this is my reaction to all the back slapping that I saw on facebook and elsewhere. I'm only trying to bring some perspective to the actual results. It's cool that we top the list but it's nothing to write home about, as far as I can see. We sure didn't ace it...
But the real point is that those who should know that stuff still did crappy. When considering only the Bible-related questions, white evangelicals only managed 61%, for example. Atheists and agnostics shouldn't be expected to "ace it," but Christians should when it comes to their holy book.

I'd be crowing about how badly people know religion even if atheists/agnostics only pulled an average of 25%. Being #1 is just icing on the cake.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2010 :  12:40:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.



Well, of course you need to build a straw man out of this.


So what has the winner of the slow sprint won for being #1 in his slow sprint?


Sounds like you're the kind of guy who would laugh at the Paralympics.


In general or are you referring to something in particular here?


I take it this is a new "finding" of yours, since in the past you've spent a lot of time here calling all sorts of people stupid.


Your confusing me with Dude. I certainly don't recall calling anybody stupid.




Of course you find your straw man silly. You fabricated it to be silly, and so it is. Certainly nobody around here has made even the merest hint that the results of this survey have any implications regarding the "God vs. no god debate," so unless you're talking about some other people and didn't bother to mention that, then you're just making shit up.


I see your point. I didn't need to add God vs. no god. So anyway, what does the longest jumper win in a contest to long jump the grand canyon?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 10/01/2010 12:57:34
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