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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2010 : 11:06:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
Dude the buzz word has been changed from global warming to climate change. Didn't you pick up on that a few years back? |
By Republican spin-doctors who thought the phrase "global warming" was too scary.
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Yep. Good ole' Frank Luntz who convinced the Bush administration to call "global warming" "climate change" because it sounded less severe. Effectively, turning science into a political argument by warning.
The scientific debate is closing [against us] but not yet closed. There is still a window of opportunity to challenge the science....Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to continue to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate, and defer to scientists and other experts in the field.
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It seems that Mr. Luntz is not totally impervious to rational arguments based on reason and data since he has come to accept AGW. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:12:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
But the good news is we can all be saved if we give enough money to the Al Gore fund and buy enough Raid.
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You bought salvation through Jesus Christ instead. By shutting your ears and eyes, there is nothing to worry about, God will fix everything.
While we're at it, why not pick up a pair of Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses? It will make life even easier for you.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 13:42:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
... Under this one size fits all banner virtually anything can be pointed to as evidence for climate change. A colder then average summer is now evidence for climate change. A warmer then average summer is now evidence for climate change. Wetter then average winter and that can be chalked up to climate change. Above average hurricane season is evidence for climate change. Below average hurricane season and, yep, you guessed it, evidence for climate change.
The current economic recession is even evidence for climate change.
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Would you care to supply any evidence that the above is the case?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 20:30:55 [Permalink]
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| He won't, because he's just talking out of his ass as usual. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 04:55:20 [Permalink]
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The Governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, had this to say:Mankind, is it responsible for global warming? Well I'll tell you something. I have seen evidence on both sides of it. I'm skeptical -- I'm skeptical. And you know, I think at the at the end of this, I think we're going to need more science to prove something one way or the other. But you know - cause I've seen arguments on both sides of it that at times - like I'll watch something about man made global warming, and I go wow, that's fairly convincing. And then I'll go out and watch the other side of the argument, and I go huh, that's fairly convincing too. So, I go to be honest with you, I don't know. And that's probably one of the reason's why I became a lawyer, and not a doctor, or an engineer, or a scientist, because I can't figure this stuff out. But I would say at this point, that has to be proven, and I'm a little skeptical about it. Thank you. The lawyers I've met have been very, very bright. Maybe my sample is too small, or Christie is the sort of lawyer who got the minimum passing score on his bar exam. Don't know. But the verbs he's chosen suggest that he's getting his global-warming knowledge from TV news items or maybe YouTube clips, when as Governor of New Jersey, he's got whole universities full of people who can "figure this stuff out" to go chat with. The campus of Princeton University, for example, is a five-minute drive from the Governor's mansion, fercryinoutloud.
But last April:Gov. Chris Christie is taking $65 million, the entire allocation, from the state's global warming fund, and $5.9 million, from the toxic waste site cleanup program, to help close the over $10 billion deficit in his $29.3 billion 2010-11 state budget, the state environmental protection commissioner said Monday. Sheesh. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2010 : 09:29:47 [Permalink]
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| ...I don't know. And that's probably one of the reason's why I became a lawyer, and not a doctor, or an engineer, or a scientist, because I can't figure this stuff out. |
I just thought that this quote from Christie needed repeating. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 09:02:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Here's a thought....of course polluting the environment has to stop and regulating the pollutants people produce is a good thing...but has there been any thought about putting a strategy together for evacuating coastal cities and setting up places to put all of these displaced people? New York, New Orleans, Miami, L.A., and all of the coastal cities will be wiped out some day. It's going to happen, it's inevitable whether you think humans are creating climate change or not. I hear absolutely nothing about any kind of plan for this.....or have I missed something?
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I think this is a most relevant point.
With the melting of the arctic, will that increase agricultural productivity, or will there be vast mid-continental deserts?
People go where the resources and jobs are. Will that mean that cities will spring up in places like Siberia and the Canadian north?
Does anyone know of plans to deal with the effects of this runaway train, or is everyone concentrated on "we need to stop and reverse this"? China and India are not going to stop their economic and social development, so it is my humble opinion that we ain't seen nothin' yet, and need to prepare for the worst. |
If you think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 09:42:24 [Permalink]
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Badger:
Does anyone know of plans to deal with the effects of this runaway train, or is everyone concentrated on "we need to stop and reverse this"? China and India are not going to stop their economic and social development, so it is my humble opinion that we ain't seen nothin' yet, and need to prepare for the worst. |
No kidding. The deniers (the real ones who Bill takes his marching orders from) are mainly politicly motivated by short term gain, or at least they don't want to take a hit. Developing economies like China don't want to take a hit, and so on. Once everyone agrees that it's happening, or are willing to do anything about it, it'll be too late. It might already be too late to stop the worst of it, now that the permafrost is thawing and releasing tons of methane into the atmosphere.
Buying land in northern Canada is not such a bad idea for a long term investment... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 13:54:37 [Permalink]
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But you see, all of this rhetoric is meaningless. AGW is on and won't get off as long as various cheap politicians and other dead-heads ignore the science. Which they will.
AGW got seriously started up about the time the Industrial Revolution got going hot & heavy -- around 1700 to 1900, as can be seen in this graph:
Reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere temperatures for the 2nd millennium according to various older articles (bluish lines), newer articles (reddish lines), and instrumental record (black line)
To put it in a little closer perspective:
Instrumental Temperature record of the last 150 years.
This is historical record and very difficult to refute, but that doesn't matter to those idiots who want business as usual or to the clowns who squeal about "God's will be done!" as they pass the collection plate.
The temperature record of the 2nd millennium describes the reconstruction of temperatures since 1000 CE on the Northern Hemisphere, later extended back to 1 CE and also to cover the southern hemisphere. A reconstruction is needed because a reliable surface temperature record exists only since about 1850. Studying past climate is of interest for scientists in order to improve the understanding of current climate variability and, relatedly, providing a better basis for future climate projections. In particular, if the nature and magnitude of natural climate variability can be established, scientists will be able to better detect and attribute anthropogenic global warming. Note, however, that although temperature reconstructions from proxy data help us understand the character of natural climate variability, attribution of recent climate change relies on a broad range of methodologies of which the proxy reconstructions are only a small part.[1][2]
According to all major temperature reconstructions published in peer-reviewed journals (see graph), the increase in temperature in the 20th century and the temperature in the late 20th century is the highest in the record. Attention has tended to focus on the early work of Michael E. Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998), whose "hockey stick" graph was featured in the 2001 United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report. The methodology and data sets used in creating the Mann et al. (1998) version of the hockey stick graph are disputed by Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, but the graph is overall acknowledged by the scientific community.
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The ultimate fate of all species is extinction. Paleo-history tells us this. The main reason for the vast bulk of all extinctions, then and now, is habitat loss. Think about it.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2010 : 08:17:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
The main reason for the vast bulk of all extinctions, then and now, is habitat loss. Think about it..... |
No species is as adaptable and so spread out across the globe as humans, thanks to its ability to shape the local environment to make it habitable. I think the risk of mankind going extinct is fairly small, but in the coming 500-1000 years, we'll see a huge reduction in numbers both through loss of habitat and ecological support, and competition (read wars) for resources.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2010 : 13:30:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
The main reason for the vast bulk of all extinctions, then and now, is habitat loss. Think about it..... |
No species is as adaptable and so spread out across the globe as humans, thanks to its ability to shape the local environment to make it habitable. I think the risk of mankind going extinct is fairly small, but in the coming 500-1000 years, we'll see a huge reduction in numbers both through loss of habitat and ecological support, and competition (read wars) for resources.
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But only just so far. The question is: given a constant CO-2 buildup for the life span of polluting industry, at what point does it become too sever for humans due to the greenhouse effect, not to mention the existence of other species?
But not to worry, one of the candidates competing for the office of the chairmanship of the House Energy and Commerce Committee assures us that God won't let it happen. Yeah, right! God won’t allow global warming,’ congressman seeking to head Energy Committee says
By Eric W. Dolan
Thursday, November 11th, 2010 -- 1:27 pm
Global warming can't destroy humanity because flood won't kill mankind, GOP congressman says
Representative John Shimkus (R-IL), who said he opposed cap and trade legislation because God would not allow the Earth to be destroyed by global warming, is seeking the chairmanship of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.
Shimkus is one of four Republicans vying to head the committee, which oversees legislation related to public health, air quality and environmental health, the supply and delivery of energy, and interstate and foreign commerce in general. He is not favored to win; the likely chairman will probably be Michigan Republican Fred Upton (R-MI)
He has served on the committee since he was first elected to represent 19th District of Illinois in 1997.
"I do believe in the Bible as the final word of God," Shimkus told Politico Wednesday. "And I do believe that God said the Earth would not be destroyed by a flood."
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Where does this would-be "leader" get the idea that there is enough water in the ice caps and the glaciers to flood the world? Coastal cities would be royally screwed, though. And forget about the "Fountains of the Deep;" those are volcanoes.
He also said the cap and trade legislation, which he says is the "largest assault on democracy and freedom in this country that I've ever experienced," would hurt plant life by reducing the amount of carbon dioxide in the air.
"It's plant food," Shimkus said. "So if we decrease the use of carbon dioxide, are we not taking away plant food from the atmosphere?… So all our good intentions could be for naught. In fact, we could be doing just the opposite of what the people who want to save the world are saying."
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Oh yeah, all them jungles on Venus are a sight to behold. This fartwit, among many others, needs to get his ignorant snout out of Genesis and into some science books. Already acid rain is changing the PH of the seas and may well be killing off species (I haven't much studied this yet, but will).
But y'see, we are not capable of destroying the world; we're good, but not that good. And some life will most likely survive to kick off Evolution all over again, unless Earth follows Venus' route.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2010 : 16:42:36 [Permalink]
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| "It's plant food," Shimkus said. "So if we decrease the use of carbon dioxide, are we not taking away plant food from the atmosphere?… So all our good intentions could be for naught. In fact, we could be doing just the opposite of what the people who want to save the world are saying." |
Yeah, plants were really struggling to get enough CO2 two hundred years ago when concentrations were roughly 40% lower. What a FUCKING moron.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 01:57:21 [Permalink]
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One effect of AGW might lead to chocolate so expensive that Valentine's Day would have to be canceled and only the Pope could afford an Easter Bunny.
Global Warming Could Lead to Vast Chocolate Shortage
One of climate change's potential victims is chocolate. Will the prospect of losing their favorite dessert finally get people to wake up?
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Somehow, I rather doubt it.
November 13, 2010
In a world that takes for granted the availability of delicious and affordable chocolate, it's easy to forget that the popular product actually comes from trees -- not magical elves or free-flowing cocoa rivers, sadly. But, some experts are predicting that in a matter of decades a drop in production due to changing weather and agriculture incentives may make chocolate 'as expensive as gold'. "In 20 years chocolate will be like caviar. It will become so rare and so expensive that the average Joe just won't be able to afford it," says one researcher. And if I know Joe as well as I think I do, this won't go over well.
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In another 20 years, Joe will likely have problems other than no Hershey Bar in his lunch bucket, I think. And in another 100, well, I dunno. But it ain't lookin' good.
It does raise this question: What would it take to convince people like that Shimkus fathead, the Oklahoma senators -- Inhofe and the other one -- and Bill to accept that AGW is happening all around us? The evidence, oceans of it, is there for anyone who wants to look at it, but apparently, unless it comes from the Bible (composed centuries before atmospheric science and even chocolate were known to Europe & Asia) or the neighborhood gossip, it will be ignored and even vigorously opposed. Is it just too complicated, or what?
But perhaps Willy will save us from a dearth of chocolate. I hope so 'cause God and government certainly won't help much. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 08:45:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
But you see, all of this rhetoric is meaningless. AGW is on and won't get off as long as various cheap politicians and other dead-heads ignore the science. Which they will.
AGW got seriously started up about the time the Industrial Revolution got going hot & heavy -- around 1700 to 1900, as can be seen in this graph:
Reconstructions of Northern Hemisphere temperatures for the 2nd millennium according to various older articles (bluish lines), newer articles (reddish lines), and instrumental record (black line)
To put it in a little closer perspective:
Instrumental Temperature record of the last 150 years.
This is historical record and very difficult to refute, but that doesn't matter to those idiots who want business as usual or to the clowns who squeal about "God's will be done!" as they pass the collection plate.
The temperature record of the 2nd millennium describes the reconstruction of temperatures since 1000 CE on the Northern Hemisphere, later extended back to 1 CE and also to cover the southern hemisphere. A reconstruction is needed because a reliable surface temperature record exists only since about 1850. Studying past climate is of interest for scientists in order to improve the understanding of current climate variability and, relatedly, providing a better basis for future climate projections. In particular, if the nature and magnitude of natural climate variability can be established, scientists will be able to better detect and attribute anthropogenic global warming. Note, however, that although temperature reconstructions from proxy data help us understand the character of natural climate variability, attribution of recent climate change relies on a broad range of methodologies of which the proxy reconstructions are only a small part.[1][2]
According to all major temperature reconstructions published in peer-reviewed journals (see graph), the increase in temperature in the 20th century and the temperature in the late 20th century is the highest in the record. Attention has tended to focus on the early work of Michael E. Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998), whose "hockey stick" graph was featured in the 2001 United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report. The methodology and data sets used in creating the Mann et al. (1998) version of the hockey stick graph are disputed by Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, but the graph is overall acknowledged by the scientific community.
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The ultimate fate of all species is extinction. Paleo-history tells us this. The main reason for the vast bulk of all extinctions, then and now, is habitat loss. Think about it.....
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I still ain't buying it. I do not see how these charts prove anything other than showing temperature increases for a very short period of time. (I dunno...1000-2000 years seems a short period of time to me) I would be much more interested in seeing accurate information that covers the beginning of last ice age to present day. There's just too much speculating going on to estimate the temperatures before 1850 for my taste.
I suppose it's kind of irrelevent (for me anyway) who or what is causing climate change because I am on cleaning the environment's side no matter if it is proven to be the fault of humans or not.
I still think rather than worrying so much about what people beleive is causing climate change we should be concentrating more on a plan to deal with the displaced people from the coastal cities because we KNOW that is going to happen. Other changes in climate for the interior of the continents are too difficult to predict accurately so those will have to be dealt with as they happen.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 11/15/2010 08:53:30 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 10:15:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I still think rather than worrying so much about what people beleive is causing climate change we should be concentrating more on a plan to deal with the displaced people from the coastal cities because we KNOW that is going to happen. |
Don't worry about those people. The Market Economu(tm) will take care of that. Once the sea level reaches their houses, whey will move someplace else when their houses gets inhabitable. It's inevitable. Since the rise won't happen tsunami-fast, there will be plenty of time to get out of the way.
| Other changes in climate for the interior of the continents are too difficult to predict accurately so those will have to be dealt with as they happen. |
Ah, but fresh water will get more valuable then gold! Gold, I tell ya!
Anyone will access to it (and the means to protect their asset, probably by gunpoint or greater caliber) gets to make a sizable profit! Market Economy(tm) wins again!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Climate change: science answers the deniers
