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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  12:38:47  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our old friend, Ken Ham, is squatting on the creationist corner with his begging bowl at the ready and singing paeans of praise for his latest project; a grossly expensive tribute to a grossly embellished sea story. In short, he needs some scratch and wants you to give it to him. Lying to the unthinking portion of the public ain't cheap.
Letter from Ken, December 2010

How can we partner with Answers in Genesis on the Ark Encounter project?

by Ken Ham, President/CEO, AiG–U.S. onDecember 27, 2010

You are probably aware of the incredible impact the Creation Museum has had on the 1.2 million guests who have visited since AiG opened it in 2007. Think of it: hundreds of thousands of Christians have become encouraged in their faith and hundreds of thousands of non-Christians have been challenged to accept biblical history.

As we have had so many adults and young people visit, we asked ourselves: “How can we make an even greater impact? Is there something else God would be leading us to do?”

Well, we are “launching” a new project: a full-scale Ark, according to the biblical dimensions and out of wood.

In a press conference December 1 that was led by Kentucky Gov. Steven Beshear, and in an announcement in our monthly newsletter, AiG declared that the same talented team that designed and built the Creation Museum will be constructing a full-scale Ark.

Noah’s Ark and the Flood are an integral part of Judeo-Christian biblical history, and elements of the biblical account are still found in the history of many cultures worldwide. Recent TV programs, articles, and books show there is still a phenomenal interest in the Ark.

Last year, CBS News reported that “Noah’s Ark continues to capture the imagination of the general public, and this interest spans all social, religious, and economic segments. The Ark and the Flood is one of the few historical events which are well known in the worldwide global circle.”

But how many people would actually come to a full-scale reconstruction of the Ark?

For the answer, Answers in Genesis engaged America’s Research Group (ARG), a highly reputable market research firm that had accurately forecast the first-year attendance for our Creation Museum (400,000). We asked ARG to conduct a nationwide survey of the general population (regardless of their religious views) to determine the market feasibility of building an Ark—i.e., how many people would actually travel here and tour our Ark?

The results of the survey were astounding. Here is one of the key findings:

If a replica of the Ark was constructed in America, would you take your family to see it?

#9632;63% - Yes
#9632;22% - No
#9632;15% - Don’t know
63% of the US population: 194 million

ARG estimated that around 1,600,000 guests would annually visit the Ark. (By the way, an outside consultant estimates that attendance at the Creation Museum could increase by about 67% as a result of the influx of people visiting the nearby Ark when it opens.)

After seeing that 1.6 million figure, we quickly realized that the Ark project would need to be much bigger than previously envisioned. To properly handle the expected crowds, we would need a large complex of associated exhibits, theaters, amenities, event venues, restaurants, ample parking, etc. We then decided on a name for this sprawling complex: Ark Encounter.

These numbers might be a tad optomistic, but there are a lot of Bible-toting suckers around. We'll see.

It's a pretty ambitious project, especially if they actually use Bronze Age building techniques. In that case, it might take longer than expected to complete, and cost more. I almost wonder if this botched abortion will actually be finished.

Then again, the Ark need not to be built to float, so they could put it up pretty much any old way that passes KY building codes, so I'm sure it will be if enough of the aforementioned suckers buy a peg, plank, a beam, or just tosses money into the bottomless, AiG bowl and listen to that sucking sound.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Baxter
Skeptic Friend

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  12:53:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Baxter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
filthy, I notice that you used the word "lying", which implies deceptive intent. Do you think that Ken Ham is a charlatan, or just blind leading the blind?

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  13:24:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baxter

filthy, I notice that you used the word "lying", which implies deceptive intent. Do you think that Ken Ham is a charlatan, or just blind leading the blind?
I think he's a charlatan; a smoother, smarter version of Kent Hovind. I've looked around a bit and found no AiG community programs nor any charitable work. They don't even run a soup kitchen, as far as I could tell. All of the money they take in either stays in or is used for promotion.

Oh, Ham might actually believe in God and Genesis and arks and the rest, but his works are clearly of the world.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Baxter
Skeptic Friend

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  13:44:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Baxter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Baxter

filthy, I notice that you used the word "lying", which implies deceptive intent. Do you think that Ken Ham is a charlatan, or just blind leading the blind?
I think he's a charlatan; a smoother, smarter version of Kent Hovind. I've looked around a bit and found no AiG community programs nor any charitable work. They don't even run a soup kitchen, as far as I could tell. All of the money they take in either stays in or is used for promotion.

Oh, Ham might actually believe in God and Genesis and arks and the rest, but his works are clearly of the world.


Well, AiG does get a 4-star rating on Charity Navigator.

If Ham actually believes in YEC, then I don't understand what he is being deceitful about.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  14:23:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baxter

Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Baxter

filthy, I notice that you used the word "lying", which implies deceptive intent. Do you think that Ken Ham is a charlatan, or just blind leading the blind?
I think he's a charlatan; a smoother, smarter version of Kent Hovind. I've looked around a bit and found no AiG community programs nor any charitable work. They don't even run a soup kitchen, as far as I could tell. All of the money they take in either stays in or is used for promotion.

Oh, Ham might actually believe in God and Genesis and arks and the rest, but his works are clearly of the world.


Well, AiG does get a 4-star rating on Charity Navigator.

If Ham actually believes in YEC, then I don't understand what he is being deceitful about.

I agree. It's possible to be completely boneheaded without being deceitful.

But still... If you make stuff up and present it in a museum as factual, just because you believe that it's true, isn't that a bit deceitful? I mean, there isn't a shred of evidence for, and lots of contrary evidence that cave people ever frolicked happily with vegetarian velociraptors. If you pull something as stupid as that from your ass and present it as a factual account of ancient history, isn't that at least stretching if not a downright lie?

Hell. He can't even point to scripture to justify that kind of nonsense. Really. He just pulled that out of his ass and it is equal to in worth, everything else that comes from that particular orifice, eh?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend

USA
131 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  15:04:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Baxter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given Ham's belief system, he can probably spread the message of vegan dinos and still have good intentions doing it.

After thinking about this some more, I agree that it is possible to be a sincere believer and still be a charlatan. I personally feel that Oral Roberts falls in that category.

Ham might shrewdly raise funds for his cause, but I'm not sure I can call him a charlatan just yet. Especially when compared to televangelists.

"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey

"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  15:24:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given Ham's belief system, he can probably spread the message of vegan dinos and still have good intentions doing it.

Yeah, but does he get a pass for believing his own bullshit and presenting it as fact? If his intention is to proselytize, and we know that it is, does he get to make up his own facts to do it? Exactly where does he cross the line dividing what is supported by evidence, or at least scripture, and what is an outright lie? With all his good intentions, is it okay for him to just make shit up?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  20:19:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What they should do with that ark? Get what, eight thousand animals (or however the hell many that they say the "original" ark had) and get eight people (the number of Noah's family) to try and keep them all alive for the same amount of time that the bible says that Noah was on the ark.

They won't even have to have the insane sea conditions that Noah had to put up with. Hell, just tie that thing to a pier somewhere and just let it float. Ok, tying something that big to a pier would be a huge problem. Well, just let it float or something. Instead of all the crap that they intend to use to make a theme park, and just use that money to hire eight zoo keepers to keep watch over those animals for a year.

Just make sure that those eight people are professional zoo-keepers to maximize their chances.

Put up or shut up, I say.

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
Edited by - the_ignored on 12/27/2010 20:26:24
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2010 :  20:52:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ig:
Just make sure that those eight people are professional zoo-keepers to maximize their chances.

Who's chances? The zoo-keepers or the animals?

Dream on. That particular experiment will never happen. Not as long as there is a Humane Society or an ASPCA.



Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2010 :  03:08:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Baxter

Given Ham's belief system, he can probably spread the message of vegan dinos and still have good intentions doing it.
Ham's professed belief system includes the idea that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2010 :  12:29:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Baxter

Given Ham's belief system, he can probably spread the message of vegan dinos and still have good intentions doing it.
Ham's professed belief system includes the idea that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.


Wait a minute...is that Dave's cherubic infant head I see floating around?

Good to see you! It's been too long!

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2010 :  15:02:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by the_ignored

What they should do with that ark? Get what, eight thousand animals (or however the hell many that they say the "original" ark had) and get eight people (the number of Noah's family) to try and keep them all alive for the same amount of time that the bible says that Noah was on the ark.
You mean something like Big Brother?
I bet they could cash in some great bucks selling that as a reality show. Those seem to run viral these days.

What I'm more interested in is...
Which species of termites thrives best in Kansas climate?


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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podcat
Skeptic Friend

435 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2010 :  19:43:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send podcat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rachel Maddow Reprise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ56_AuvtLo

The comments are a hoot.

“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.

-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2010 :  01:04:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect Ham's a fraud, and not even a pious one. For him, it's all about money and power.

Note how the "ark" will be built: Promotional images show it standing firmly on land, as though it were just being completed. It will not have to be in any manner seaworthy, nor even water-tight. As Filthy has commented before, very large wooden ships become increasingly difficult to build with any kind of seaworthiness. Simply put, they fall apart when the sea does its usual thing.

All the "Ark of Ham" will prove is that such a wooden monster is best maintained purely as a landlubber. I hope it has a good, modern sprinkler system!

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2010 :  05:09:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope it has a good saloon, but it won't.

I'd like to be in a position to observe the construction, and count the sheets of plywood & sheetrock used inside. Also concrete, a Roman invention, if I'm not mistaken, that considerably post-dates the physically impossible voyage of the alleged Ark.

But enough ridicule, for now. I'm wondering about finances -- exactly how much money is AiG going to invest out of pocket? Not very much, if the Creation "museum" is any example. That monument to ignorance was financed entirely by donations, so we're told. Now, 27 mil is a lot of jack for 'most any population of average pew-dwellers to come up with within a relatively short time frame, so I also wonder what sort of deals were and are being made between Ham and his larger "donors." Yes, I have a nasty, suspicious mind.

If this thing is completed and you decide to visit it for whatever perverse reason, beware the restrooms. The plumbing of the period was primitive at best.



A lot of it wasn't even this good





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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JerryB
Skeptic Friend

279 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2010 :  16:01:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send JerryB a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Given Ham's belief system, he can probably spread the message of vegan dinos and still have good intentions doing it.

Yeah, but does he get a pass for believing his own bullshit and presenting it as fact? If his intention is to proselytize, and we know that it is, does he get to make up his own facts to do it? Exactly where does he cross the line dividing what is supported by evidence, or at least scripture, and what is an outright lie? With all his good intentions, is it okay for him to just make shit up?


Most of them have good intentions. But having known many over the years, there are charlatans everywhere and I would suppose that is true with all faiths.

For example, I had connections in the Christian music industry a few years back and I was shocked to learn that "about" 50% of so called Christian groups are not Christians at all back-stage. They are in the business to make money and are good at acting on stage, that's it.

That goes for ministers as well. In fact, I know one very popular singer you have heard of who is, in fact, openly gay backstage. I'm not a homophobe, but I don't care for hypocrisy either. Just be honest with me and we are cool.

Jan and Paul Crouch, that very happily married couple that some of you watch on TV......er......aren't married in real life. LOL....That is correct. They have been divorced for years, seem to hate each other in real life and just have a business relationship for the money.

Many of these people seem to have actual psychological problems as well. Trust me. Been there, done that-have the T-shirt.
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