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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 10:20:31 [Permalink]
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le Penseur. Why did you take a pass on the first story? Why didn't you answer my questions concerning your description of that encounter?
How did your mother know that locking the door wouldn’t work?
Also, what did she mean by “They came back!”?
What do you mean by “…did some time on the table”?
How do you know it was the same ship that took you back? Were they the same kind of creatures that abducted you in your first story? In that story, it was a saucer shaped vehicle, so I’m asking.
Did you all remember what happened when you woke up? Were any of you fuzzy on the details?
Were any authorities called? Apparently there was a mass abduction that day. Were there also reports of UAP’s or UFO’s on the same day? Were there any reports of other abductions on the same day? Are you aware of reports, even in those publications that work under the assumption that alien abduction happens, of other abductions occurring on the same day along with sightings?
The truth is, your story is filled with inconsistencies. But I don’t have time to go through it with a fine tooth-comb at the moment. It does seem very dream like, as Dave said about the first encounter which I would very much like to know more about.
I have many more questions, but this is a good beginning, I think.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 10:56:16 [Permalink]
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| Oh. le Penseur, I have a few more questions before I go. Did you ever seek therapy due to the trauma of these events? And if so, was any of that therapy regressive? Do you have symptoms of PTSD that might have gotten you into a therapy? Or do you lead a pretty normal life with the memories of these unusual events not playing much of a roll in your general well being? Do you take part in any support groups for victims of alien abduction? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2011 : 11:55:56 [Permalink]
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Kil:
| The truth is, your story is filled with inconsistencies. |
Whoa. Name one, please, and I will attempt to address it.
Keep in mind I've only given a quick overview of events, but so far I've been absolutely accurate as to what happened, as far as I can tell. Points may need to be clarified, of course, I may not have communicated effectively in my attempt at brevity.
| How did your mother know that locking the door wouldn’t work? |
I must assume she tried some similar type of action in a previous encounter. My mother had been abducted before I was born, according to her, when she was a teenage girl. I wasn't there at the time so can't verify that, of course. I can say that I had been abducted along with my mother previous to this 1973 encounter, But I had to start this narrative somewhere, and this encounter that involved most of my family seemed like the best place to start. She was not present at the first encounter I started to describe, in 1968, but was in other incidents. I will point out that I have never been taken with my father going too, although he himself was involved in a 1984 incident.
Also, what did she mean by “They came back!”?
What do you mean by “…did some time on the table”?
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I believe she meant the aliens have come back. But she never called them aliens. Still doesn't. Them. They. Those things. Later in life, she has taken to trying to think of them as angels, in a way, perhaps in an attempt to reconcile these traumatic events with her fairly religious upbringing, and thus make sense of the world. But she uses the term loosely, almost tongue in cheek. In serious private conversation, she admits they were aliens.
As far as "on the table", most encounters with these particular aliens have involved being placed on a table and undergoing anything from a cursory examination to very painful procedures. For example, once they put something in my sinus, through my nose, and it was extremely painful.
Let me say up front, I do not recall any incidents involving anal probing, and this story can be traced back directly to Whitley Streiber. I have never spoken with any other abductee/contactee that has been anally probed during an encounter (what they do on their weekends, that's their business, but not with aliens, lol). I think this idea circulates because it lends ridicule to the very serious phenomenon of alien abduction. Mention of "anal probing" lets people snicker and laugh, and dismiss the entire topic .
| How do you know it was the same ship that took you back? Were they the same kind of creatures that abducted you in your first story? In that story, it was a saucer shaped vehicle, so I’m asking. |
I suppose it could have been simply the same type of egg-shaped craft that brought us back, as opposed to the actual SAME craft, but the interior seemed exactly the same, and it was the same aliens that brought us that took us back. As far as I could tell. I'm not sure I could tell them all apart by looking at them, but the mental communication they use is very intimate and gives a definite impression of each individual being you communicate with.
Yes, in 1968 I was taken in a saucer shaped craft, that, ironically, was larger than the egg-shaped craft they took my whole family with in 1973. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 13:12:13 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur......
| I'm not sure if there's anything to be gained by responding to Dave W. But, I'm not looking to gain anything, and Dave is clearly a very intelligent man who is adding a lot of good information to the conversation, It would be rude to ignore what He's saying |
LP... Now that you have had your initiation schoolyard scuffle with the resident intellectual bully, David Weinblen, it will be necessary for you to decide how to deal with this odd character.
Within the group dynamic of SFN, Dave is generally fairly highly regarded. His quick intellect and remarkable ability to information mine the Wikipedia and other instantaneous Google resources creates an appearance of a polymath or polyhistor and is indeed an impressive facade. Most SFN members avoid direct confrontation with Dave and much prefer to agree with his various oracular pronouncements rather than risk taking an opposing position.
One does not win arguments with Dave, irrespective of the degree of truth or falsity of the matter under discussion. Such contests either end with Dave's impudent opponent simply being bulldozed by a mountain of mixed fact and opinion, strongly punctuated by abundant intellectual insult and belittlement. The inevitable outcome is similar to the fate of General Douglas MacArthur - old arguments with Dave never die, they just fade away.
However, if you enjoy such quixotic contests, there is much to be gained from jousting with He Who Must Not Be Opposed. He is a veritable fountain of information, and if you bother to check his endless declarative sentences, you will find that many are either true or have some basis in truth. If you are his intellectual equal and have a taste for this type of conflict, you will reach stalemate, or at least it's appearance, rather quickly. If you are fortunate enough to be correct in your position, better prepared, or just plain bulldog stubborn, you can put him in a corner (not easy, by a long shot), at which point he will either simply stop communicating or concoct an outrage of some sort (insult, lack of respect, or some quasi-emotional shading of meaning that has offended his sense of omniscience) and the matter will be settled forever in his view.
I must caution you with repect to these comments. Dave W is not only Management here at SFN, he is also part of the ownership of SFN. As such, Dave W. is deferent only to the senior owner of SFN, Kil (David Glück) David is a much more pleasant, flexible, and intellectually mature individual, but he hired Dave to be The Editor, and he certainly does not interfere in any way with Dave W.'s perogatives - which is the way that it must be, in my view. The Boss cannot hire a manager and then not allow him to manage.| someone else brought it up as an absolute limit, and I just question if that is the case. I'm no "nuclear pharmacist", and I'd be out of my depth even pretending to discuss the issue intelligently. |
As would anyone else around here, incuding myself. But your point is well taken, not too long ago it was the physicists's Gospel that nothing could travel faster than light. Now, in 2011, it appears that several things have been found that do, in fact, travel faster than the speed of light! The famous quote of the highly respected Lord Kelvin:| "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." |
comes to mind.
To me, it appears prima facie evident that faster than light space travel is perfectly possible under physical laws that transcend Einstien's. We simply have not yet had enough time to work on the problem. Other "alien" civilizations quite possibly have.| The contention was whether it could be possible to do it at all, or if it was impossible. |
Dave's view seems to be that something is impossible until it becomes possible, but because we cannot know when, or even if, that time will come, the event must be simply be labled as "impossible" As you must surmise, I completely disagree with this myopic position, but my list of such disagreements with his pronouncements is very long indeed. I agree they live under extremely different conditions here on Earth, this seems only to support my point that Earth has amazing bio-diversity.
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And, further, points up the very strong possibility that extraterrestrial life forms may not necessarily conform to limitations put on extant Earth life forms, such as vulnerability to the time contraints that "prevent" intergalactic space travel.| No, I don't. The aliens have told me directly what they think of the Earth, and there are more than one alien species that consider the Earth, and not necessarily humanity, to be very important. Whether they consider other worlds in our solar system of importance too I cannot say. Other than the moon. |
Well, you certainly are in a rather unique position of authority in that respect, and far be it for me to contest such a statement, at least until I have heard much more of your extraordinary narrative.
I must say, Le Penseur, that so far you have carried off this bold exercise in street opera; or, possibly, one of the most remarkable narratives ever heard by mortal man, extremely well. I commend your tolerance, your bravery in the lion's den, and the carefully scripted manner in which you release details of your experiences as a very clever literary effort.
Please give the broad basis of what you have learned pretty soon now, most of us are philistines whose attention span is limited. I, of course, will be here to the last word, but you will find others nodding off before long. We must, of course, address the matter of verifibility eventually. It is, unfortunately, the ONLY issue of any interest to most of the active members of SFN!
Watch the box-office report on the front page, it changes at least hourly. When your topic decends to the bottom of the list, you can retrieve it from the Forums tab at the top of the home page. But only for thirty days. After that. topics apparently are relegated to the Archives, and the arcane methodology to retrieve such material is known only to the relatively few Powers That Be (officers and mediators of SFN
Because you may, for one reason or another, find yourself separated from SFNand you might wish to contact me independent of forum posting; there is a private mail system available to members. In the event that privilege has been revoked for me or you cannot access it because of various transgressions (including this post), my very public e-mail is bngbuck@roadrunner.com Please continue with your narrative including the Aliens' curious interest in you and particularly your family. I am genuinely fascinated, and cannot put the book down! |
| Edited by - bngbuck on 02/25/2011 17:00:42 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 14:23:04 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur, I would urge you to ignore the ramblings of bngbuck, who is bitter for his own reasons and whose characterization of Dave W. I find to be projection of the highest degree. The majority of the members here do respect Dave a great deal, I can assure that this respect has been duly earned. He possesses a keen mind and you would do well to address any of his comments or criticisms, which are always salient and meticulously argued. bngbuck is merely soothing his bruised ego with this loser's lament.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/25/2011 14:25:54 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 16:08:10 [Permalink]
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Humbert.....
Thank you for your views. If you would care to further extrapolate on them, please do, as I find them of great interest. If not, I appreciate the content of what you have offered so far. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 16:11:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Watch the box-office report on the front page, it changes at least hourly. When your topic decends to the bottom of the list, you can retrieve it from the Forums tab at the top of the home page. But only for thirty days. |
Not if you change the drop-down box near the bottom of a folder's main page (example) to say "all topics" (instead of "the last 30 days") and click the little "Go" button.
A better option for watching a thread than the home page is Active Topics.| After that. topics apparently are relegated to the Archives... |
Nothing has been moved to the archives since March, 2007.| ...and the arcane methodology to retreive such material is known only to the relatively few Powers That Be (officers and mediators of SFN |
If you go to the forums page, you can enter the archives for a specific folder by clicking the little folders with the letter A on them down the right-hand of the page. Here, for example, is the archive for the Astronomy folder. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 16:46:29 [Permalink]
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Le Penseur.....
Thanks for your detailed reply to Kil. I also have many questions to ask you regarding the details of which you have spoken so far, but I would rather wait until you have finished the primary narrative before asking specific questions.
Unless you have an objection, I would appreciate your e-mail address so that I could communicate with you concerning your ET experiences after this topic's half-life has expired here on this forum.(mine is bngbuck@roadrunner.com)
I am in mid-manuscript on a exploratory treatise that deals extensively with matters similar to those discussed in your commentary here, and I would appreciate the opportunity to talk to you more regarding both the general and specific nature of your experiences. I am optimistically hopeful that I may be ready to seek publication by next year sometime. My (tenative) agent has read much of what I have written to date, and her view is one of cautious optimism.
Regarding my commentary on Dave and others. Listen carefully to what members Humbert Humbert and Dude have to say.. You have already had brief notes from both of them in this thread. As you begin to perceive the communication paradigm of SFN; the style, affect, and information content of these member's posts will help you to get a pretty clear nature of the interesting little microcosm that these forums represent in the vast panoply of the Internet world of message boards. I am looking forward to more narrative! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 18:26:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Dr. Mabuse,
Thank you for the information, why do I feel like I'm failing your class this semester?
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Our mission statement calls for members to contribute their viewpoints and expertise. I provided a simple thought experiment which demonstrate how Faster-Than-Light rules can be broken, if you only consider the simplest possible scenario and don't take all parameters into account.
The facts by themselves are simple, but unfortunately out of grasp of most jounalists. They are because of that prone to misunderstanding what they are reporting, or spinning the fact in order to produce a cool story (with a big headline) to sell.
The speed of light is not absolute in the sense that the speed of photons decrease when they travel through other media (like glass, water, or optic fibre) than vaccuum. In vaccuum, the speed of light is 3x108m/s. When the photon enters an optic fibre, its speed drops to 2x108m/s.
While a signal travels through a long optic cable, another signal can travel as an electric impulse through a copper wire much faster and overtake the optic signal.
As long as you're not specifying in which medium any given signal is travelling, all bets are off: you could actually produce a signal that travels faster than the speed of light (as it travels through an optic cable).
The journalist simply drops the "as it travels..."-part and wham! you have an awsome headline to inpire any science fiction fan who lacks formal education in physics.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 19:00:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I'm certain there is nothing I can say to him that he wants to hear... |
I'm certain that you're wrong about that. I very much want ET visitations to be happening, because that means that there's a cheap and easy way off this particular dirtball, but that doesn't mean that I'll believe without evidence. If people really are being abducted, then that's a serious national security issue and we need to learn how to stop it, but that doesn't mean I'm credulous. A productive discussion may turn up a method through which I could gather the data that I need in order to be convinced.| I didn't bring up the speed of light, someone else brought it up as an absolute limit, and I just question if that is the case. |
I know you didn't bring it up, but you still used your questioning of it as an argument in favor of belief, including citations. My point was that those citations in no way suggest that any human or alien can go FTL, since they were all about processes which transmit no information, and we've known that information-free "things" can travel FTL since before you were born. In other words: nothing in those three examples is inconsistent with the physics that Einstein knew in his prime (even if he disagreed with the quantum stuff).| I'm no "nuclear pharmacist", and I'd be out of my depth even pretending to discuss the issue intelligently. All I can say is it seems that a lot of scientists claim they can soon, or already have, broken the FTL rule in one way or another. |
It only seems that way because you're clearly unfamiliar with what the "rule" actually says. If we cut your statements down to the minimum, you're essentially saying, "I'm ignorant of the laws of physics, but these experiments violate them." It should be obvious that such an argument won't fly.| I do remember widespread media coverage a year or two ago regarding an experiment where they successfully teleported photons embedded with information. |
You're probably thinking of quantum teleportation, which again cannot be used to transmit information FTL, and violates no law of physics that we've known about since the early 1960s. What made it newsworthy recently was the record-setting distance brought the phenomenon more into the realm of practical applications, including quantum computing and encryption. Our applied technologies always lag behind the theoretical physics, this was an example of them catching up.| I heard about it and read a little about it on NPR and BBC, some sources I feel do a pretty good job. Whether it turns out to be another cold-fusion story I don't know. |
Yeah, popular journalism and science don't often mix together very well, even in the hands of those with the best intentions and highest integrity. Science reporters mostly don't have the education to properly contextualize the science, and media editors generally don't want to publish more-accurate but less sensational headlines like, "scientists accomplish that which has been thought possible for 50 years."| I certainly agree with that, Dave W. No one is contesting that current attempts or potential successes in FTL are only a starting point. The contention was whether it could be possible to do it at all, or if it was impossible. |
And I'm saying that to the best of our current knowledge, it's impossible, and none of the examples you've provided offer even the tiniest of challenges to that conclusion. I'm more than willing to be shown that I (for one) am wrong, and that FTL travel for macroscopic objects which carry information is possible, since it would be invaluably useful and just plain-old cool (regardless of whether ETs are using it or not). But nobody yet has presented any exceptions which get us anywhere close to anything like a starting point. The science still tells us it cannot be done, for very practical reasons that have withstood all experimental attempts to disprove them. Arguments along the lines of "maybe the aliens know something we don't" simply cannot compete with the cold, hard facts.| The lichen you mention, the deep-sea anemones, the life-forms in Yellowstone's hot springs, these creatures you mention in an effort to counter my suggestion that Earth is a rare jewel, They all live here on that rare jewel, Earth, don't they? Yes, I agree they live under extremely different conditions here on Earth, this seems only to support my point that Earth has amazing bio-diversity. |
I'm not disputing that there is a whole lot of biological diversity here, I'm just disputing that "amazing" is a proper adjective (in comparison to what, exactly?) and I'm disputing the idea that the diversity of environments which led to the diversity of life is a defining characteristic of a "rare jewel."| But when I call the Earth a "rare jewel", and you respond "The arrogance of place and rank anthropocentrism in this statement is simply astonishing ", I thought that was a little insulting, but if that's how you feel, so be it. |
If you're insulted by it, then maybe you've got more of a personal attachment to this planet than perhaps you should have. We have a problem here in the U.S.A. with the Teabaggers and other conservatives espousing this wildly unjustifiable American exceptionalism which darkens our political discourse simply because so many people prefer the emotionalism instead of the facts. You seem to be holding onto an "Earth exceptionalism" which could become similarly dangerous if we suddenly needed to start addressing, as a planetary society, our political engagements with alien civilizations.| No, I don't. The aliens have told me directly what they think of the Earth, and there are more than one alien species that consider the Earth, and not necessarily humanity, to be very important. Whether they consider other worlds in our solar system of importance too I cannot say. Other than the moon. |
Not sharing your views on alien contact, I certainly cannot address this, other than to apologize for using the word "assume," which was clearly not appropriate for the context.| You're an intelligent guy, Dave W., I'd rather have you as a friend. If your goal is to 'beat me', we should just declare you the winner and move on. |
I'd much rather not worry about friendship or who's beating whom, and just have an open and honest discussion of the things you want to discuss. Friendship (or not) will likely follow naturally from that, I never planned on trying to force it either way. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 19:09:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Kil:| The truth is, your story is filled with inconsistencies. |
Whoa. Name one, please, and I will attempt to address it. |
How about the part where you agree there's an inconsistency:| I've been asked many times, "If the one alien could walk through the solid wall, why did the other open the back door and walk in normally? Aha! Gotcha! Inconsistancy!" I agree, it is an inconsistancy. |
That you don't know why the aliens behave inconsistently doesn't make the inconsistencies go away. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 19:15:50 [Permalink]
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le Penseur. Thanks for the replies to some of my questions. I'm hoping you will answer the rest of my questions or give me a reason why a question I have asked might be, in your view, out of bounds or not worth a reply. So far it feels like you have picked only those questions that you want to answer and left the rest behind. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, for now, because I know how time consuming writing a post can be.
Aside from being interested in what you think of Whitley Streiber, I'll not add anymore questions at the moment and await your reply.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 20:11:02 [Permalink]
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Can we have a reality check here?
Stories, no matter how convinced you are of the truth of what you are saying le Penseur, do not constitute evidence. Never have and never will.
You want to engage in a real discussion on this topic then you need to bring me some evidence. If you can't, then how am I going to be able to distinguish between you and a deluded imbecile making up stories?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 20:21:09 [Permalink]
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bng said:
| Now that you have had your initiation schoolyard scuffle with the resident intellectual bully, David Weinblen |
.... really?
Because here you said:
| I regret the insecurity you betray by using the term "intellectual bullying" It is very difficult for one true intellectual to bully another. You perform very well under pressure, Dude, there is no need for intellectual penis envy. |
Feeling a little insecure there?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 20:52:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Can we have a reality check here?
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Who are you asking? Are you not the least bit interested in why some people absolutely believe that they were abducted by aliens?
Lets say, for the sake of this discussion, that the whole thing is a false memory. False memories are very real to the people who have them. They are indistinguishable from real memories. Does that possibility hold no interest at all for you? And is the holder of a false memory automatically an imbecil?
And fales memory is only one possibility.
I think all of us have pretty much said that without physical evidence, no skeptic here will accept an account of alien visitation and abduction as a fact. So what's your beef?
Maybe you need a reality check Dude. Did anyone ask you to believe le Penseur's story? Not even he asked you to. I'm interested in his story for many reasons, most of which are of interest to many skeptics, even if you aren't one of them.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
