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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2011 : 21:01:59 [Permalink]
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Okay....where to continue....I definitely feel the heat being turned up now, lol.
Let me say that If I didn't answer everybody's questions, it's simply a matter of time limitation, some of my posts have taken me over a hour to write, and between work and family , I'm doing my best to respond, I'll try to step it up. If it's okay to ask you, you can re-ask any questions I overlook. I just got home, horrible weather for driving, a foot of new snow and ice...I'm going to relax with a glass of wine and respond to these last posts right away. Mmm...tonight, a wonderful Grenache-Syrah-Mouvedre. Maybe two glasses.
Where are my manners? Join me for a drink. What's your poison?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2011 : 22:13:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dude
Can we have a reality check here?
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Who are you asking? Are you not the least bit interested in why some people absolutely believe that they were abducted by aliens?
Lets say, for the sake of this discussion, that the whole thing is a false memory. False memories are very real to the people who have them. They are indistinguishable from real memories. Does that possibility hold no interest at all for you? And is the holder of a false memory automatically an imbecil?
And fales memory is only one possibility.
I think all of us have pretty much said that without physical evidence, no skeptic here will accept an account of alien visitation and abduction as a fact. So what's your beef?
Maybe you need a reality check Dude. Did anyone ask you to believe le Penseur's story? Not even he asked you to. I'm interested in his story for many reasons, most of which are of interest to many skeptics, even if you aren't one of them.
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Kil, WTF man. You are not walking in lockstep! Snap to it!
But to answer your questions:
I do find false memories interesting. Its one of those subjects that makes you sit back and question your own memory, which can be an interesting exercise.
But I'm asking for a reality check because you and buckaroo are egging this guy on, and he seems like he needs therapy not encouragement.
If its a false memory then you are never going to convince him its false, are you? I mean, his delusion seems pretty well established. What do you hope to gain from getting him to provide more stories?
Then this:
| Maybe you need a reality check Dude. Did anyone ask you to believe le Penseur's story? Not even he asked you to. |
Did you read the title of this thread Kil? The guy is insisting his story is true. If that is not the exact same thing as asking me to believe him, then what is it? Who the hell would, in any context, state they think something is true and not also intend for other people to consider what they are saying? If they really don't give a fuck, silence seems the wiser option, doesn't it?
OK, I'm going to state some things I believe to be facts, but I don't care if you give my statements any consideration at all, I'm just talking because I enjoy the sound of my voice! No, I don't want you to believe my statements, or even evaluate them, I'm just making random noises because its fun!
I'm interested in his story too, but for different reasons than you. I want him to provide some mechanism for distinguishing between his stories and random crap anyone can make up. I explicitly did not call him an imbecile, I just want a way to determine the difference between him and delusional people. My bet is that he won't try, because he can't do it. Or maybe the next time he is abducted and probed he will send his alien buddies to see me.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 02:57:50 [Permalink]
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Were any authorities called? Apparently there was a mass abduction that day. Were there also reports of UAP’s or UFO’s on the same day? Were there any reports of other abductions on the same day?Are you aware of reports, even in those publications that work under the assumption that alien abduction happens, of other abductions occurring on the same day along with sightings?
Did you ever seek therapy due to the trauma of these events? And if so, was any of that therapy regressive? Do you have symptoms of PTSD that might have gotten you into a therapy? Or do you lead a pretty normal life with the memories of these unusual events not playing much of a roll in your general well being? Do you take part in any support groups for victims of alien abduction?
Okay, let me back up a bit and answer some of Kils previous questions I didn't get to.
| Were any authorities called? |
In this incident in 1974, no, neither I or my family attempted to contact "authorities", and in a very real sense, there WERE no authorities to contact. And now, 37 years later, there still ARE no authorities to contact. I was a boy still in 1974, as were my brothers, but after later incidents, when my brothers and myself were grown men, we did attempt to go to the authorities, in one case to report a sighting involving multiple witnesses.
When we contacted the police, they would not take a report. Not their area, they said. But but oddly, the officer did say they had had several calls about the same thing, so he believed we did see something strange, but that we shouldn't worry, because "UFOs don't exist,so it must've been something else". lol.
Nor were the state police willing to take an incident report, they suggested we call the local airports. So we did, the airports were not the least bit interested, with no information to give. At one point we got brave enough to contact the big Air Force base that was upstate in Plattsburg. Sorry, Not Interested. Maybe call your local police.
And round it went, "There's a hole in the bucket dear Liza, dear Liza..."
| Apparently there was a mass abduction that day. Were there also reports of UAP’s or UFO’s on the same day? Were there any reports of other abductions on the same day?Are you aware of reports, even in those publications that work under the assumption that alien abduction happens, of other abductions occurring on the same day along with sightings? |
Last question first, I have no idea if there existed a publication in 1974 that "worked under the assumption that alien abduction happens," To be honest,I'm not sure if one exists today. I have seen a couple of UFO magazines in Barnes and Noble, but I don't think they dealt with abductions.
You see, there is a great rift in The UFO "community". There are those who strictly insist on dealing only with the vehicles. They are convinced these ships are in the sky, maybe even occasionally landing on the ground for a bit, but they are unwilling to concede they have ever had contact with humans, and they sincerely wish abductees would just shut up and go away.
If you're referring to newspapers like the Weekly World News, which often have aliens in their front page stories, the stories are always comedic, "Elvis has alien Marilyn Monroe's baby", I haven't seen any serious reporting there.
It's really only the last fifteen years or so that the internet has provided some significant resources for reporting UFO incidents, but there still are no 'authorities' in the field. Even the "Experts" are amateurs. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 03:42:37 [Permalink]
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Kil asks:
| Did you ever seek therapy due to the trauma of these events? And if so, was any of that therapy regressive? Do you have symptoms of PTSD that might have gotten you into a therapy? Or do you lead a pretty normal life with the memories of these unusual events not playing much of a roll in your general well being? Do you take part in any support groups for victims of alien abduction? |
No, I've never been in therapy of any kind. I always did great in school. Well-adjusted as a kid, had a lot of friends, more than my share of girlfriends. Always a great sense of humor, never tended towards depression. Never showed any PTSD, I don't think, especially as a young man. I must admit it has weighed heavier on me in recent past years, for whatever reasons. My brothers have always been less troubled by it.
When we speak of these incidents, my brothers and I, it brings adrenaline to our blood, usually. It is exciting, scary, sure, but Jesus, how thrilling.
I'd have to say it played little role in my well-being, but there are times you just have to put it away from your thoughts because the situation is out of your hands, and everyone around you is just tired of hearing about it already.
No, I'm in no support group for abductees, but when I run into another whose experiences sound genuine to me, I always compare notes. Most people who tell me they were abducted or had alien contact do not end up sounding believable to me, especially when they start talking about "astral contact" or "dream contact" with aliens. There is yet another rift, those who feel that abductions are physical, as I do, and those who think that it is a non-physical experience. But I give the benefit of the doubt, when I can.
There are more sub-divisions in the UFO community than there are in Levittown. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2011 : 04:23:34 [Permalink]
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I'm just gonna toss this out and see which hound gets to it first:
??
It's been niggling in the back of my mind since the beginning. As one who has been known to run a poe once in a while, I am always slightly suspicious of well-written but unsupported stories & claims. But I must say, if le Penseur is trying to run a poe, it is quite a good one.
And if not, I'll keep these threads in mind for inspiration the next time I do it. Poes are fun, and thank you very much.
Edited to add link.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/26/2011 04:37:09 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 08:48:19 [Permalink]
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I will ask again, how do I make a distinction between your story and one that any person could just make up? I need a way to do that or I am left unable to tell the difference. You, le Penseur, have to provide it along with your story.
I'd appreciate an answer.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 09:36:59 [Permalink]
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I will ask again, how do I make a distinction between your story and one that any person could just make up? I need a way to do that or I am left unable to tell the difference. You, le Penseur, have to provide it along with your story.
I'd appreciate an answer.
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Dude. I'm sorry that by sharing my accounts of direct contact with aliens that I have caused you so much consternation. Certainly not my intent.
I did state up front that I won't be offended if you choose to believe everything I say is utter bullsht. I'm not insisting, or even asking, that anyone must accept my accounts as Gospel Truth. If you were that easily swayed, you wouldn't be worth telling it to.
What is it exactly that you insist I HAVE TO PROVIDE in order to be allowed to continue telling what happened to me?
I , too, would appreciate an answer. |
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le Penseur
Banned
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 09:51:03 [Permalink]
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Filthy,
Edgar Allen Poe stayed right here, a mile from my house, at an artist's retreat called "Yaddo". Created as a place for artist and writers to stay for free and concentrate on their work. In an huge 19th century gothic mansion, it is alleged that, under a bust of Pallas, Poe began writing "The Raven."
"Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor."
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 11:29:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
What is it exactly that you insist I HAVE TO PROVIDE in order to be allowed to continue telling what happened to me? |
You don't have to provide anything to be allowed to continue your stories. But you have stepped into a skeptic's forum and people will probably continue to insist that you provide more than "blah, blah" if you want to be taken seriously.
And didn't Dude, by any chance, give you some examples of what you could supply us with already? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 12:18:14 [Permalink]
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le Penseur. So you never felt particularly traumatized? How about your mom? Both she and you seemed to be pretty frantic when the aliens arrived. And then there was the "table time" and so on. I find it more than a little odd that you did not seek out people with similar experiences if for no other reason than to confirm that you aren't alone in this. (Yes. I understand that you have your family, but still...) How about your mother who was in complete panic mode, according to your story? Being put in a position of having to hide her children from an invader, let alone an alien one, is no small thing that can be just brushed off from a psychological standpoint. People have experienced PTSD from simple home invasion and other trauma's that don't envolve such a complete and forced surrender to circumstance like being paralyzed, kidnaped from your home, and subjected to other forms of abuse.
Or let me try this from another direction. Children who have been forcibly subjected to physical abuse, even if it only happend once, carry those scars for life. And yet, the physical abuse you have described carries no scars in your case, even though there were multipal episodes. Just a little adrenaline rush when you talk about it with others.
| It is exciting, scary, sure, but Jesus, how thrilling. |
Hell, I get an adrenaline rush when I think about some of the waves I have riden as a surfer. And I don't have to wonder when I will be FORCED into that situation again!
Your almost just a matter of fact account of what happened to you multipal times would cause most people to be seriously traumatized and seek help if it happened to them.
Having said that, I am aware that many people who claim alien abduction live regular lives and feel no need to deal with a serious trauma and one that could happen again. So I have to wonder, why not?
With what we know about trauma, and what you described was most certainly traumatic even by your own account, while not inconsistant with the data on many who claim alien abduction with regard to trauma, it is inconsistant with what we know about trauma in general, which is a reason why many psychologists dismiss claims like yours. (They dismiss the claim, not the belief behind the claim.) It doesn't add up.
Also, in about 75% of the cases of claimed alien abduction, the memory of the event is either fuzzy or it's reported as time lost. Eventually the memory becomes clearer through one technic or another, and the story is told. That's clearly not the case with you and your family. So why the discrepancy among the victims themselves? This is a bit like playing What's My Line. "Will the real abduction victim please stand up?"
Those are more than trifling inconsistencies with regard to what we know about trauma, the psychological impact on abducties reaction to their claimed abductions in general, and your reaction to being repeatedly abducted in particular.
Edited... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 13:07:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I did state up front that I won't be offended if you choose to believe everything I say is utter bullsht. I'm not insisting, or even asking, that anyone must accept my accounts as Gospel Truth. |
If something like this happened to me, I'd be desperate to prove it was actually happening. I'd have my property and home wired to the rafters with sound and video cameras, motion sensors, and alarms. I'd have backup generators and backups for the backups. I'd handcuff myself to the bed every night, which would be bolted to the floor. Not only because I would fear for my own sanity, but because if true, it would be the greatest discovery in the history of the world.
I don't think I'd be blasé as you about it, nor disinterestedly share my experiences with strangers before I had sufficient evidence to verify at least parts of my story.
So I'm finding it hard to connect even on an emotional level with the events you describe. It just doesn't ring true to me.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2011 : 13:22:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
Filthy,
Edgar Allen Poe stayed right here, a mile from my house, at an artist's retreat called "Yaddo". Created as a place for artist and writers to stay for free and concentrate on their work. In an huge 19th century gothic mansion, it is alleged that, under a bust of Pallas, Poe began writing "The Raven."
"Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor."
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That's very interesting and I am well acquainted with that Poe. I read him often, However, the law, Poe's Law to be specific, does not refer to the immortal Edgar Allen, but to Nathan, whom I am much less familiar with, but who came up with one of the great truths of our times. Do go back and open the link. Then all will be revealed.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 13:36:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by le Penseur
I will ask again, how do I make a distinction between your story and one that any person could just make up? I need a way to do that or I am left unable to tell the difference. You, le Penseur, have to provide it along with your story.
I'd appreciate an answer.
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Dude. I'm sorry that by sharing my accounts of direct contact with aliens that I have caused you so much consternation. Certainly not my intent.
I did state up front that I won't be offended if you choose to believe everything I say is utter bullsht. I'm not insisting, or even asking, that anyone must accept my accounts as Gospel Truth. If you were that easily swayed, you wouldn't be worth telling it to.
What is it exactly that you insist I HAVE TO PROVIDE in order to be allowed to continue telling what happened to me?
I , too, would appreciate an answer.
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What you have to provide is a mechanism that let's me distinguish between your story and a made up story. Your story is a fantastic set of claims. But let's focus on the claims aspect for now. What your story lacks is a way to make a distinction between truth and fiction.
Almost all basic exchanges of facts have a self evident way to distinguish them from fantasy. Hey, the paint there is wet! You can just reach out a finger and test it.
When you make a fantastic claim, like alien abduction, and there is no self evident way to verify it, then you must provide the mechanism that lets others make the distinction between truth and fiction.
I have suggested several possible options, you can surely think of more as well.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 15:39:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
To me, it appears prima facie evident that faster than light space travel is perfectly possible under physical laws that transcend Einstien's. We simply have not yet had enough time to work on the problem. |
Bolding above mine...
And here you confess to not being of skeptical mind, no matter how much you pretend to be.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2011 : 17:59:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
But your point is well taken, not too long ago it was the physicists's Gospel that nothing could travel faster than light. |
No, it wasn't.| Now, in 2011, it appears that several things have been found that do, in fact, travel faster than the speed of light! |
Nothing new or interesting.The famous quote of the highly respected Lord Kelvin:| "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." |
comes to mind. |
The famous quote which nobody can find. He did say that flight would never be "practically successful," and he was, indeed, wrong about that. He later said,The air-ship, on the plan of those built by Santos-Dumont, is a delusion and a snare. A gas balloon, paddled around by oars, is an old idea, and can never be of any practical use. Some day, no doubt, some one will invent a flying machine that one will be able to navigate without having to have a balloon attachment. But the day is a long way off when we shall see human beings soaring around like birds. "The day" was less than a decade away, so he was wrong there, too.
He was also wrong in proclaiming that all sciences other than physics were "stamp collecting," that "Radio has no future," that "X-rays will prove to be a hoax," and that physics was complete. He also said,Do not be afraid of being free thinkers. If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all religion. You will find science not antagonistic but helpful to religion. So it seems that at best, Lord Kelvin was a highly respected nutjob.| To me, it appears prima facie evident that faster than light space travel is perfectly possible under physical laws that transcend Einstien's. |
Except that the evidence upon which you're basing this conclusion is wrong. You declared your ignorance of the science, but still pontificate about it. Here's another example:| We simply have not yet had enough time to work on the problem. |
You agreed that you would "be out of my depth even pretending to discuss the issue intelligently," and here you are, discussing the issue unintelligently.| Dave's view seems to be that something is impossible until it becomes possible, but because we cannot know when, or even if, that time will come, the event must be simply be labled as "impossible" As you must surmise, I completely disagree with this myopic position... |
So do I! I've got no clue how you traveled from what I actually said to that idiotic dreck (just like I still cannot fathom why you decided to start demonizing me back in December of 2009). But you seem to have made a habit of it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ETs are here, despite guesses to the contrary
