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 "Shadow Matter,Psychic Phenomena and Possible Surv
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  10:33:06  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've recently read(partially) the book written by G.D.Wasserman "Shadow Matter and Psi-phenomena and possible Survival of Human Personality".
Here is description from Amazon: "A scientist casts new light on psychic phenomena, such as clairvoyance, telepathy, and 'out of body experiences'. He presents an exciting new theory which explains such phenomena, linking the recently discovered 'Shadow Matter' world of physics with parapsychology. It replaces notions of the occult with important new ideas that are figuring in physics (even in recent television programmes). The book contains case histories, showing how this new theory could account for telepathy, clairvoyance, 'out of the body experiences', and apparitions of the living and the dead in terms of Shadow Matter. It also explains how Shadow Matter theory could account for the survival of the human personality after death of the body. The author builds on theories until now discussed only in academic journals. This theory was first published in brief outline in the journal Inquiry in 1988. It develops the concept of the Shadow Matter world introduced in the journal Nature in 1985. Suitable for general readers interested in new developments in science; general readers interested in parapsychology and the occult; specialists and scholars, especially in physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, philosophy and medicine."

What do you guys think about it?So far it doesn't seem that this theory got much acceptance in the scientific circles.

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:10:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do we think about it?

We try not to think about it.

Edit: What I mean is, through practice we have developed multiple layers of BS filters, the idea from your description wouldnt even make it past the most porous of filters. BNG might be interested however.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 03/31/2011 11:14:21
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:20:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

What do we think about it?

We try not to think about it.

Edit: What I mean is, through practice we have developed multiple layers of BS filters, the idea from your description wouldnt even make it past the most porous of filters. BNG might be interested however.

Because it is scary,or because it is far-fetched?
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:21:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is the equivilent of someone saying that Bigfoot is the primary cause of cancer.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:37:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

It is the equivilent of someone saying that Bigfoot is the primary cause of cancer.

Could be the case...
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:40:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alexander1304,
You have managed to come across some things that I have never heard of. As BPS has explained after a while the bullshit filters become so that sometimes ideas like this get tossed automatically in the bullshit can without much thought about it.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  11:53:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Before one may appeal to theoretical particles not demonstrated to exist to "explain" psychic phenomena, one would first need to establish that there is such a thing as psychic phenomena. This has not yet been done, so any purported explanations would be conjectural and utterly worthless.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/31/2011 11:55:18
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  12:06:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Alexander1304,
You have managed to come across some things that I have never heard of. As BPS has explained after a while the bullshit filters become so that sometimes ideas like this get tossed automatically in the bullshit can without much thought about it.

So from your post it is not clear - you regard this therory as woth of serious consideration,or not?
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  12:10:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Before one may appeal to theoretical particles not demonstrated to exist to "explain" psychic phenomena, one would first need to establish that there is such a thing as psychic phenomena. This has not yet been done, so any purported explanations would be conjectural and utterly worthless.




Maybe the better question to ask - how reasonable(even possible) it to postulate existence of Shadow Matter Brain and Shadow Matter Body
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  13:10:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Alexander1304

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

Alexander1304,
You have managed to come across some things that I have never heard of. As BPS has explained after a while the bullshit filters become so that sometimes ideas like this get tossed automatically in the bullshit can without much thought about it.

So from your post it is not clear - you regard this therory as woth of serious consideration,or not?


Whenever I see things like
"A scientist casts new light on psychic phenomena, such as clairvoyance, telepathy, and 'out of body experiences'. He presents an exciting new theory which explains such phenomena, linking the recently discovered 'Shadow Matter' world of physics with parapsychology.
it makes me think that the word "scientist" is being used very loosely.

I might be interested enough to read it. Can't say for sure whether it is worthy of serious consideration without reading it. Seeing as the keywords used to describe the book are pseudoscience words I highly doubt it contains anything credible.

I could be wrong though.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  13:22:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whenever I see things like
"A scientist casts new light on psychic phenomena, such as clairvoyance, telepathy, and 'out of body experiences'. He presents an exciting new theory which explains such phenomena, linking the recently discovered 'Shadow Matter' world of physics with parapsychology.
it makes me think that the word "scientist" is being used very loosely.

I might be interested enough to read it. Can't say for sure whether it is worthy of serious consideration without reading it. Seeing as the keywords used to describe the book are pseudoscience words I highly doubt it contains anything credible.

I could be wrong though.



What can be interesting sign is,that this theory didn't appear in any peer reviews in scientific publications,and id you search it through the internet - you will find very few references,maybe 10.Here is good review: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_n3_v57/ai_15383549/pg_6/
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  13:44:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Alexander1304
Maybe the better question to ask - how reasonable(even possible) it to postulate existence of Shadow Matter Brain and Shadow Matter Body
Not reasonable for the reasons already given.

1) We have no reason to presume psychic phenomena are legitimate and so therefore are not in need of any explanation. 2) We don't know that shadow particles exist. 3) We have no idea what the properties of shadow particles might be even if they do exist. 4) We have no reason to presume shadow particles and psychic phenomena have any relation to one another.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  13:51:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Alexander1304
Maybe the better question to ask - how reasonable(even possible) it to postulate existence of Shadow Matter Brain and Shadow Matter Body
Not reasonable for the reasons already given.

1) We have no reason to presume psychic phenomena are legitimate and so therefore are not in need of any explanation. 2) We don't know that shadow particles exist. 3) We have no idea what the properties of shadow particles might be even if they do exist. 4) We have no reason to presume shadow particles and psychic phenomena have any relation to one another.


Thanks for Your insightful post,H.Humbert.Regarding your point #3 I found such an interesting quote about it made by Joel R. Primack, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa
Cruz.: "Shadow matter is a hypothetical form of matter that is thought to interact with ordinary matter only through the force of gravity. If shadow matter exists, it is a form of dark matter.
Dark matter is invisible matter that scientists believe makes up most of the mass of the universe. Dark matter is invisible because it does not give off, reflect, or absorb light. Unlike
other hypothetical forms of dark matter, shadow matter cannot be detected in any laboratory experiment (see DARK MATTER).
Theoretical studies have shown that if shadow matter does exist, its properties are very different from those of ordinary matter.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  14:10:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if "shadow matter" only interacts with normal matter via gravity, then it won't ever do much to a human brain, and so can't be a mechanism through which psi might work.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Alexander1304
Skeptic Friend

75 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  14:21:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Alexander1304 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, if "shadow matter" only interacts with normal matter via gravity, then it won't ever do much to a human brain, and so can't be a mechanism through which psi might work.

More deep question arises even: if the properties of the shadow matter are very different(according to the quote above) from that of ordinary matter,then how such Shadow Matter could form structire similar to human brain?(the main point of Wassermann's theory)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26001 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2011 :  14:47:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Alexander1304

More deep question arises even: if the properties of the shadow matter are very different(according to the quote above) from that of ordinary matter,then how such Shadow Matter could form structire similar to human brain?(the main point of Wassermann's theory)
Psychic "abilities" effect the human brain. No matter how different the properties of "shadow matter" are from normal matter, if the former only affects the latter through gravity, then there's no reason to think it has any significant effects at all. A "shadow brain" of similar mass to an actual brain will have 0.000000000000000000000004 times less of an effect on a human brain as the whole planet Earth does, which isn't much to begin with.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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