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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2011 : 12:04:42 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by LizW |
| If the husband in question works normal business hours, |
Define normal business hours.
| and we are speaking of small children (older children are more autonomous... they are also heavier and less likely to be tossed) |
But they only stay small for a few short years. Better enjoy it while you can because tomorrow they will be grown.
| then the amount of time between Dad getting home and children going to bed is quite short... maybe an hour or two. |
Exactly. Dad works 8-10 hours comes home and has 2-3 hours to spend with the kids, help mom get them off to bed and maybe by 9 o'clock he has his first chance of the day to sit down and relax before he falls asleep in the chair.
| Mom has already cleaned up the shampoo, toothpaste, and talcum powder viscosity experiment that happened while she was on the phone with the car repair guy, and she has already rescued the cat from the dishwasher before it got it's "bath". The kids are usually already fed (or are in the midst of being fed) by this time. |
Honey that is cake work compared to the ebbs and flows of my typical work day.
| Dad gets maybe bathtime and a couple of "I don't want to go to bed" meltdowns. |
After just spending up to 10 hours or more at work, which gives him a 10-13 hour day every day all before his first chance to even sit down for the first time since rising from bed in the early morning so he ain't late for work.
| Of course you would! Grass is always greener. |
Exactly. One week at my job and you would be begging for your old life back. And in most cases it is the man mowing that green grass, after 10 hours at work and 2 hours with Sally before bed.
| You don't know the stresses of daily responsibility for a human being who does not yet have full communication skills or cognitive function. |
The heck I don't. Half of my personal (sick) days or more for the past 7 years have been to take care of the kids while mom is out of town, or sick or has something else going on. Half of my vacation days are spent this way as well. The other half are used so I finally have time to paint the fence, reroof the shed, cut down the old tree etc... etc...
| You also have a job where goals can be reached and there is some satisfaction to that. |
I would say that raising happy, healthy and productive kids is the ultimate satisfaction that one can attain.
| Household responsibilities are nothing but a continuous battle with entropy... everything a stay at home mom does today will have to be done again tomorrow, no completion just continuation. |
I have held the same position at the same company for 18 years now. You are preaching to the choir here.
| Even my female friends from school who are not mothers or wives have less leisure time than my male friends. |
I could offer much anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
| There not willing to not bath for a few days, or live in a place harboring antibiotic resistant strains of staph infection. |
You have male friends who are willing to live like this? I might reevaluate my friends here or at least not visit their living quarters then.
| They work out more, take more time to offer support to others,and put more time into making sure class assignments are presented well. |
I have plenty of male friends who work out, support others and finish class assignments, and all of this after working a full day and then coming home and helping out with the kids and getting them off to bed.
Laugh while you can monkey boy. Here is an abstract of an article fro the "Journal of Family Psychology" I would have drawn from the actual article but I am not willing to pay for it.
"Spouses' balancing of housework and leisure activities at home may affect their recovery from work. This paper reports on a study of everyday family life in which 30 dual-earner couples were tracked around their homes by researchers who recorded their locations and activities every 10 min. For women, the most frequently pursued activities at home were housework, communication, and leisure; husbands spent the most time in leisure activities, followed by communication and housework. Spouses differed in their total time at home and their proportion of time devoted to leisure and housework activities, with wives observed more often in housework and husbands observed more often in leisure activities. Both wives and husbands who devoted more time to housework had higher levels of evening cortisol and weaker afternoon-to-evening recovery. For wives, husbands' increased housework time also predicted stronger evening cortisol recovery. When both spouses' activities were entered in the same model, leisure predicted husbands' evening cortisol, such that husbands who apportioned more time to leisure, and whose wives apportioned less time to leisure, showed stronger after-work recovery. These results suggest that the division of labor within couples may have implications for physical health." (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2011 APA, all rights reserved) |
And that is why I said if the couple both work outside of the home the childcare and housework should be divided up 50/50. If not the spouse who is doing the most pulling ought to lay down the law with the slacker and inform the slacker that the easy days are over. If not then it is on them.
And where in this article did they mention the outside chores. I know around many houses when it comes to fixing the ripped screen, reroofing the shed, painting the fence, mowing the grass, trimming the weeds, changing the oil in the car, repairing little Sally's bike, taking down the dead tree etc... etc.... 90% or more of this fun falls on the man's shoulders. And it usually falls on his shoulders after a full day of work and several hours spent with the kids.
Again, please don't get confused here. I am not saying that working women or homemaking women with kids do not lead busy and stressful lives. What I am saying is that I don't buy for a second your generalization that women are bussier than men. I know plenty of men who between spending 50 hours a week at work, spending time with the kids and all the upkeep and maintenance that goes into keeping a house and property maintained properly can barley find an hour or two for themselves out of an entire week.
| Oh... and Ebone nice to meet you. Most actions on fb take about 3-5 minutes. It took me over an hour to compose this post and my son has interrupted for various reasons exactly 11 times. |
Yeah but when you have 15 actions that take up to 5 minutes each it all adds up. And Ebone nailed it here. He could easily ask why is FB so dominated by women and you see much fewer posts from men? Then I could pipe in and say that it is because men are more busy than are women and they have much less leisure time. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 12:35:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
This kind out going around in circles about who is busier women or men, reminds me of the three blind men trying to describe the shape of an elephant. With specific blinder placement all comments are correct. Without blinders to exclude the exceptions they become absurd. SS
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That is my point. I found the generalization that "women are busier than men and so therefore they post less on skeptic forums" to be absurd. My point was/is that if a wife and husband with children share the load equally than both are going to have very busy lives. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 13:53:38 [Permalink]
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My wife and I inadvertently solved this whole "division of labor" problem handily, by having our three children within two years of one another. With three under five years of age, there were never opportunities for either one of us to slack off.
I understand that other couples deal with things differently. I remember being puzzled by a co-worker who asked how my wife and I decided who's turn it was to change a diaper. I'd honestly never thought about it. If I was handy, I did it. If she was, she did.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 15:24:31 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Bill scott |
I am pretty sure I am not going to be able to convince you of anything... and that's ok. I am happy to agree to disagree. My original post was not meant to be taken as a statement of fact but as my best guess based on my own observations. I am not a Sociology major but I have been a stay at home mom and a stay at home mom\student and a stay in another country mom\student. The only reason I have time for these posts right now is that I am on sabbatical and my son is 10 now and doesn't require as much micromanaging.
I would like to address some of your statements though.
| Define normal business hours. |
Depends on your job but for clarity lets say some time between 8am and 8pm. Monday through Friday. I was more interested in the time that our hypothetical father returned home in relationship to the little hypotheticals bedtime.
| Dad works 8-10 hours comes home and has 2-3 hours to spend with the kids, help mom get them off to bed and maybe by 9 o'clock he has his first chance of the day to sit down and relax before he falls asleep in the chair. |
Stay at home moms work 24-7 no holidays and usually at least part time on sick days.
| Honey that is cake work compared to the ebbs and flows of my typical work day. |
If your job is sooooo challenging exactly how are you finding time to write posts in the middle of the day on a Tuesday? I am on sabbatical what's your excuse?
| Exactly. One week at my job and you would be begging for your old life back. And in most cases it is the man mowing that green grass, after 10 hours at work and 2 hours with Sally before bed. |
Not sure what your job is, if your job is in the medical field or sewage treatment this doesn't apply but I once told a pharmacist I was chatting with "If your day didn't include being thrown up on or cleaning human feces off a wall... it was a good day."
| The heck I don't. Half of my personal (sick) days or more for the past 7 years have been to take care of the kids while mom is out of town, or sick or has something else going on. Half of my vacation days are spent this way as well. |
Short bursts of time will give you an idea of what being a stay at home parent is like but it is not long enough for you measure the full effect of the position. You said you have been at your job for eighteen years, if I came in and worked it for two weeks would I be able to appreciate the grind it is for you?
Also in short bursts you are just doing survival mode stuff. Keep the kids fed, clean and entertained, and straightening up the house. You are probably not doing the 8,000 other jobs that stay at home parents do that working parents don't even notice. Did you do stuff like take the silverware out of it's drawer clean the holder and wipe out the collected dust and debris, how about cleaning the light fixtures, did you sort the food in the pantry and throw away all the stuff that was expired or stale? Those kind of jobs are what eats up all the extra time that people think stay at home parents have and they may seem unimportant but if they don't ever get done things go down hill pretty quick.
| I would say that raising happy, healthy and productive kids is the ultimate satisfaction that one can attain. |
I agree, but on a day to day basis it is a thankless job facing people that you love who will look directly at you with hatred for denying them cookies.
| You have male friends who are willing to live like this? I might reevaluate my friends here or at least not visit their living quarters then. |
I am the worlds oldest undergrad. Most of my friends from school are in there 20s. Also if I measured relationship viability by how people keep house, Dave and I would never have gotten together. When we met he lived in an apartment with two other guys. There was a mystery stain in the hall that was slowly developing conciousness and scuff marks on the ceiling.
| Yeah but when you have 15 actions that take up to 5 minutes each it all adds up. And Ebone nailed it here. He could easily ask why is FB so dominated by women and you see much fewer posts from men? Then I could pipe in and say that it is because men are more busy than are women and they have much less leisure time. |
The point I was trying to make about FB was not about the amount of time women spend on it but the distribution. You can drop a sentence or two while you are waiting for water to boil, post a picture in the 10 minutes the kids are actually playing quietly together, etc... It doesn't require a large block of time in which to develop a cogent point and hopefully express it well enough that others will understand it.
Oh... Dave pointed out to me that I am not literally on sabbatical. So I will rephrase. I am in an unintended period of academic stasis until either Georgetown chooses to accept me as a student or they don't and I return to Tokyo and finish out at Temple.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 05:21:40 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by LizW |
| I am pretty sure I am not going to be able to convince you of anything... and that's ok. I am happy to agree to disagree. My original post was not meant to be taken as a statement of fact but as my best guess based on my own observations. I am not a Sociology major but I have been a stay at home mom and a stay at home mom\student and a stay in another country mom\student. The only reason I have time for these posts right now is that I am on sabbatical and my son is 10 now and doesn't require as much micromanaging. |
My only beef is with your theory that, in general, American women are more busy than men. I don't buy it and so far neither have any of the others who choose to reply to your post.
And all this talk of the grind of raising children and all you have is one? *sigh*
I would like to address some of your statements though.
Stay at home moms work 24-7 no holidays and usually at least part time on sick days. |
Working dad does the same thing. The second working dad clocks out at the office and comes home he clocks in as dad and husband. That includes helping stay at home mom with the kids and dinner etc... Again, I am not saying stay at home mom is not busy or can not get stressed. What I am saying is that sometimes stay at home mom likes to whine a little to much and act as if no one else is busy, either.
| If your job is sooooo challenging exactly how are you finding time to write posts in the middle of the day on a Tuesday? I am on sabbatical what's your excuse? |
Well if you would look you would see that I average less than one post a day. So every a now and then I get chance to roam the forum but many times it may be weeks or even months before getting a chance to return again. I am a busy man you know.
And if that last post took you an hour this one must have taken you 3-4 hours. How in the world could you pull that off and do 8000 chores both in the same day?
| Not sure what your job is, if your job is in the medical field or sewage treatment this doesn't apply but I once told a pharmacist I was chatting with "If your day didn't include being thrown up on or cleaning human feces off a wall... it was a good day." |
With only one kid how often can this possibly happen? And how/why is your 10 year old getting human feces on the wall? I would be putting a stop to that real quick.
| Short bursts of time will give you an idea of what being a stay at home parent is like but it is not long enough for you measure the full effect of the position. You said you have been at your job for eighteen years, if I came in and worked it for two weeks would I be able to appreciate the grind it is for you? |
Short bursts my eye. I spent many days at home with the kids during the economic slow down beginning in 2008. I have spent every other Saturday with the kids to cover for my wife's commitments for the past 7 years now. Not to mention all the times I have the kids after work and on the weekends while mom is taking care of business. Again, not saying stay at home moms are not busy. Just saying most working dads are very busy as well.
| Also in short bursts you are just doing survival mode stuff. Keep the kids fed, clean and entertained, and straightening up the house. |
I thought you said that you had one kid?
| You are probably not doing the 8,000 other jobs that stay at home parents do that working parents don't even notice. Did you do stuff like take the silverware out of it's drawer clean the holder and wipe out the collected dust and debris, how about cleaning the light fixtures, did you sort the food in the pantry and throw away all the stuff that was expired or stale? Those kind of jobs are what eats up all the extra time that people think stay at home parents have and they may seem unimportant but if they don't ever get done things go down hill pretty quick. |
Honey I work full-time and have done every single one of those chores myself many many times.
| I agree, but on a day to day basis it is a thankless job facing people that you love who will look directly at you with hatred for denying them cookies. |
I won't disagree there. I think all parents, at times, think their kids have acted unappreciative.
| I am the worlds oldest undergrad. Most of my friends from school are in there 20s. And l so if I measured relationship viability by how people keep house, Dave and I would never have gotten together. When we met he lived in an apartment with two other guys. There was a mystery stain in the hall that was slowly developing conciousness and scuff marks on the ceiling. |
But you said these guys went for days without bathing and lived with infectious debris in their living quarters. That is more than a stain in the hallway. I trust that Dave does not go for days without bathing.
| The point I was trying to make about FB was not about the amount of time women spend on it but the distribution. You can drop a sentence or two while you are waiting for water to boil, post a picture in the 10 minutes the kids are actually playing quietly together, etc... It doesn't require a large block of time in which to develop a cogent point and hopefully express it well enough that others will understand it. |
The point was not how long a particular task on FB may take. The point was that women tend to spend just as much time on the internet as men, they just tend to spend their time doing other things on the net. Most skeptic media is dominated by men while most social media is dominated by women. Sure everyone has an anticdotal example to the contrary but I am talking in general here.
| Oh... Dave pointed out to me that I am not literally on sabbatical. So I will rephrase. I am in an unintended period of academic stasis until either Georgetown chooses to accept me as a student or they don't and I return to Tokyo and finish out at Temple. |
So who takes care of the kid and does the 8000 chores that you do when you are abroad? Dave? If so than I am very impressed with Dave. You just spent 4-5 hours to build the case for how busy you are with your responsibilities, and you don't even work outside the home. So the fact that Dave can take on your responsibilities, work his job and average 7 posts per day on this forum is some serious time management. I tip my hat to you, Dave, as I have some kind of idea of what a feat that is to pull off.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 09:06:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| My only beef is with your theory that, in general, American women are more busy than men. I don't buy it and so far neither have any of the others who choose to reply to your post. |
I didn't restrict it to American women. My original point was that I think that women in general have less time for leisure pursuits. I know that I have had no replies of agreement and I may have put my foot in it. It's alright, I knew the risks going in. I am also pretty sure all the replies I've gotten are from men (not positive though so don't get upset if your a female and have replied).
As for the only child thing, every parent child dynamic has it's own challenges and rewards. You don't have enough data to judge the time investment necessary in mine specifically...and I am not going to offer it. Let's return to hypothetical children.
| What I am saying is that sometimes stay at home mom likes to whine a little to much and act as if no one else is busy, either. |
As you have done a bit of whining about your own responsibilities here, I think we can show some sympathy.
| Well if you would look you would see that I average less than one post a day. So every a now and then I get chance to roam the forum but many times it may be weeks or even months before getting a chance to return again. I am a busy man you know. |
Actually, I'll buy that. I was mostly baiting you here because I was pissed off at you addressing me as HONEY in your post. If you are not a southern woman, calling someone you don't know well honey is disrespectful and an attempt to diminish their status. It's like calling some guy PAL right before picking a fight with them.
| And if that last post took you an hour this one must have taken you 3-4 hours. How in the world could you pull that off and do 8000 chores both in the same day? |
I am not drawing from my immediate situation. Right now I have more time than I know what to do with. After my son got to the age to start school, I chose to return to college. This is the first time in three years (including summer semesters) That I haven't been carrying at least a couple of classes. Right now I am time rich, just remodeled the bedroom and about to start on the kitchen.
| With only one kid how often can this possibly happen? And how/why is your 10 year old getting human feces on the wall? I would be putting a stop to that real quick. |
I "once" told a pharmacist... toddler years.
| Honey I work full-time and have done every single one of those chores myself many many times. |
Once again HONEY not a good choice. As far as your point, good for you and even better for your wife.
| The point was not how long a particular task on FB may take. The point was that women tend to spend just as much time on the internet as men, they just tend to spend their time doing other things on the net. Most skeptic media is dominated by men while most social media is dominated by women. Sure everyone has an anticdotal example to the contrary but I am talking in general here. |
The point I was making is that most social media actions are easier to do while multitasking. They do not require a separate time investment, but can be patchworked in to time already devoted to other tasks.
[quote]So who takes care of the kid and does the 8000 chores that you do when you are abroad? Dave? If so than I am very impressed with Dave. You just spent 4-5 hours to build the case for how busy you are with your responsibilities, and you don't even work outside the home. So the fact that Dave can take on your responsibilities, work his job and average 7 posts per day on this forum is some serious time management. I tip my hat to you, Dave, as I have some kind of idea of what a feat that is to pull off. |
Actually it took not only a huge sacrifice on Dave's part, but also a huge sacrifice on the part of my mom. Nobody needs to tell me how lucky I am. My husband is an amazing and exceptional man. He is brilliant and funny and kind and cute and generous and I could keep going on like this for pages and pages. When I started studying Japanese it was a lark, I wanted some intellectual exercise. Neither one of us realized that it would lead me back to working toward a degree, but if you invest a few years in studying something you sort of start hoping you can make it pay off.
As for Dave's activities on SFN. I don't think Dave considers the time spent on SFN as leisure. He takes it very seriously. It is a commitment to something important to him. He often sacrifices sleep for it. It is in a way his other family. If he is going to have another family, I prefer it be here.
Oh... I didn't pop the quote about guys in their 20s and the whole hygiene, housekeeping thing. But as far as I can tell the sporadic bath thing may be less common but the toxic living arrangements seem to be the rule rather than the exception. I've been to numerous study groups held in the dorms I've seen pretty consistent patterns of decay.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 10:08:07 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by LizW |
| Actually it took not only a huge sacrifice on Dave's part, but also a huge sacrifice on the part of my mom. Nobody needs to tell me how lucky I am. My husband is an amazing and exceptional man. He is brilliant and funny and kind and cute and generous and I could keep going on like this for pages and pages. When I started studying Japanese it was a lark, I wanted some intellectual exercise. Neither one of us realized that it would lead me back to working toward a degree, but if you invest a few years in studying something you sort of start hoping you can make it pay off. |
That is a nice story and Dave sounds like a very nice husband and it also shows how busy he is. It kinda proves my point that behind every succesful stay at home mom is a very busy full time job working dad. Again, not saying that stay at home moms are not busy and do not have stress. Only saying that most dads who work full time outside the home are very busy and can get stressed, too.
| As for Dave's activities on SFN. I don't think Dave considers the time spent on SFN as leisure. He takes it very seriously. It is a commitment to something important to him. He often sacrifices sleep for it. It is in a way his other family. If he is going to have another family, I prefer it be here. |
But you consider it leisure. Addressing the question "Why are so few women posting on the skeptic forum?" you wrote:
| I believe women participate less for the simple reason that we have less time to invest in leisure pursuits in general. |
So actively participating in this forum is clearly a leisure pursuit in your eyes but not in Dave's. That is fine. It seems to be working for you two even though the difference of opinion on how the time is classified. But if I were you I would stick to the leisure pursuit label. Then you can play the overworked and overstressed housewife card on him and point to all his leisure time on the computer while you are busy working on chore 7589 for the day.
| Oh... I didn't pop the quote about guys in their 20s and the whole hygiene, housekeeping thing. But as far as I can tell the sporadic bath thing may be less common but the toxic living arrangements seem to be the rule rather than the exception. I've been to numerous study groups held in the dorms I've seen pretty consistent patterns of decay. |
I was just going by what you had wrote:
| Even my female friends from school who are not mothers or wives have less leisure time than my male friends. There not willing to not bath for a few days, or live in a place harboring antibiotic resistant strains of staph infection. |
So going by your words one must conclude that your male friends do not bath for days and live in a place harboring antibiotic resistant strains of staph infection.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 11:54:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| It kinda proves my point that behind every succesful stay at home mom is a very busy full time job working dad. Again, not saying that stay at home moms are not busy and do not have stress. Only saying that most dads who work full time outside the home are very busy and can get stressed, too. |
No it doesn't. When I said Dave was exceptional, I was not being hyperbolic. He is an exception. I get constant confirmation of that whenever another woman finds out my husband agreed to be a single parent during the extended period of time necessary for me to travel and work on my degree. They literally (and yes I am using literally correctly) often don't believe me at first. I have only run into one other similar situation where a woman leaves the country for work or school and it is a family in which both parents are anthropologists and take turns spending extended periods of time overseas. Now, we live near DC and military families often have this experience but that is less choice than necessity. I do however know several families in which the wife maintains what is primarily a single parent household because the husband works in a different country although I will admit these are not often women who work outside the home (unless you count community volunteerism which shouldn't be sneezed at).
| But you consider it leisure. Addressing the question "Why are so few women posting on the skeptic forum?" |
I consider most people's participation in web communities "leisure activity" but Dave is not just a participant in SFN he's an admin. The time he devotes to this site posting might be leisure but there is also all the man hours he and the other admins and moderators contribute as a service because without them this site would not exist. I believe it is more a mission to them than a diversion. Just like almost everybody they have a belief system that they think will make the world a better place and they work hard to promote and defend it. Also don't jump on this as a chance to open up an argument about belief systems, whole 'nother can o' worms, not even interested in going there.
| Then you can play the overworked and overstressed housewife card on him and point to all his leisure time on the computer while you are busy working on chore 7589 for the day. |
I easily had that card to play when my son was younger. However, like I've pointed out, I am well out of that particular card game. I am speaking of the women I know, once again I am an extremely lucky exception. I am addressing the general population as I experience it. Why aren't there more "girl gamers", why are there so few women contributing to SFN on a regular basis, why is there a lower proportion of women who participate in local politics, etc... Because from what I see, women have less available time to invest or maybe they just aren't as willing to take that time for themselves filling it instead with those tasks beyond their normal responsibilities. The things we do for others. Just another example... this of course does not apply to all women but it is another example that I think shows the trend of women taking on more responsibility in general. These are statistics from a 2004 survey on the average home caregiver.
In the U.S.: According to a 2004 Survey conducted by the National Alliance for Caregiving and AARP: She is 46, works, has at least some college education and cares for her 75-year-old widowed mother who lives nearby.
Country Statistics: Population: 306 million
#61500; A 1997 AARP and National Alliance for Caregiving survey reported 27% of caregivers were men (By 2004, it was almost 40%)
#61500; 60% of male caregivers worked full time. 41% of female caregivers worked full time
#61500; Males and females face the same challenges (depression, stress, exhaustion and reduced personal time); however, men approach the role differently. “Men approach caregiving as work, tasks that must accomplished,” says Edward H. Thompson, coeditor of Men as Caregivers
#61500; Men delegate and are more comfortable seeking outside help
2008 US Bureau of Labor Statistics
#61500; A National Alliance for Caregivers study estimates family caregivers suffer a financial loss of $650,000+ in lost wages, pensions and Social Security benefits
Actually in the men's favor, working their way up from being only 27% of home caregivers to 40% in just seven years is pretty damn impressive. Not to mention that in comparison to the stats on Africa and Asia (not shown) it is amazingly good. But women are still leading and have been for pretty much recorded history.
This is also only covering the extreme cases of caring for the elderly, or ill, or handicapped. It doesn't address the day to day support women offer there family and community above and beyond the call of duty. House watching, dog walking, baby sitting, sending all those getwellcongratulationscheerup cards, cooking for sick friends or new moms...
[quote]So going by your words one must conclude that your male friends do not bath for days and live in a place harboring antibiotic resistant strains of staph infection. |
Yes this is true. They also often take too long between laundry days. They're guys, they're young. I really don't know how to justify it for them. It is just one o' those things.
Anyway, on a closing note. I would love to see your reply on this, it has been fun, but we are pretty much just playing a game of he said she said ring around the rosy here, and it is really eating up more time than I am willing to spend on it. I know I said I was time rich but I should actually be spending quite a bit of it, reinforcing the honorific language forms I covered last semester before I forget all of it and have to learn them all over again.
Like I said: agree to disagree. Although as a parting shot I would like to point out that I am the only one who even attempted to offer any info based on quantifiable data (although as attempts go it was pretty meh.) |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 12:15:56 [Permalink]
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Bill scott.....
| Got any evidence for that claim? |
As always, I don't make claims, I express opinion. The FSM "claim" is as self-evident to Pastafarians as the Christ/God/Trinity bullshit is to Christians.
My opinion is that all of you motherfuckers are certifiably insane. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 12:48:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
Originally posted by Bill scott
| It kinda proves my point that behind every succesful stay at home mom is a very busy full time job working dad. Again, not saying that stay at home moms are not busy and do not have stress. Only saying that most dads who work full time outside the home are very busy and can get stressed, too. |
No it doesn't. When I said Dave was exceptional, I was not being hyperbolic. He is an exception. I get constant confirmation of that whenever another woman finds out my husband agreed to be a single parent during the extended period of time necessary for me to travel and work on my degree. They literally (and yes I am using literally correctly) often don't believe me at first. I have only run into one other similar situation where a woman leaves the country for work or school and it is a family in which both parents are anthropologists and take turns spending extended periods of time overseas. Now, we live near DC and military families often have this experience but that is less choice than necessity. I do however know several families in which the wife maintains what is primarily a single parent household because the husband works in a different country although I will admit these are not often women who work outside the home (unless you count community volunteerism which shouldn't be sneezed at).
| But you consider it leisure. Addressing the question "Why are so few women posting on the skeptic forum?" |
I consider most people's participation in web communities "leisure activity" but Dave is not just a participant in SFN he's an admin. The time he devotes to this site posting might be leisure but there is also all the man hours he and the other admins and moderators contribute as a service because without them this site would not exist. I believe it is more a mission to them than a diversion. Just like almost everybody they have a belief system that they think will make the world a better place and they work hard to promote and defend it. Also don't jump on this as a chance to open up an argument about belief systems, whole 'nother can o' worms, not even interested in going there.
| Then you can play the overworked and overstressed housewife card on him and point to all his leisure time on the computer while you are busy working on chore 7589 for the day. |
I easily had that card to play when my son was younger. However, like I've pointed out, I am well out of that particular card game. I am speaking of the women I know, once again I am an extremely lucky exception. I am addressing the general population as I experience it. Why aren't there more "girl gamers", why are there so few women contributing to SFN on a regular basis, why is there a lower proportion of women who participate in local politics, etc... Because from what I see, women have less available time to invest or maybe they just aren't as willing to take that time for themselves filling it instead with those tasks beyond their normal responsibilities. The things we do for others. Just another example... this of course does not apply to all women but it is another example that I think shows the trend of women taking on more responsibility in general. These are statistics from a 2004 survey on the average home caregiver.
In the U.S.: According to a 2004 Survey conducted by the National Alliance for Caregiving and AARP: She is 46, works, has at least some college education and cares for her 75-year-old widowed mother who lives nearby.
Country Statistics: Population: 306 million
#61500; A 1997 AARP and National Alliance for Caregiving survey reported 27% of caregivers were men (By 2004, it was almost 40%)
#61500; 60% of male caregivers worked full time. 41% of female caregivers worked full time
#61500; Males and females face the same challenges (depression, stress, exhaustion and reduced personal time); however, men approach the role differently. “Men approach caregiving as work, tasks that must accomplished,” says Edward H. Thompson, coeditor of Men as Caregivers
#61500; Men delegate and are more comfortable seeking outside help
2008 US Bureau of Labor Statistics
#61500; A National Alliance for Caregivers study estimates family caregivers suffer a financial loss of $650,000+ in lost wages, pensions and Social Security benefits
Actually in the men's favor, working their way up from being only 27% of home caregivers to 40% in just seven years is pretty damn impressive. Not to mention that in comparison to the stats on Africa and Asia (not shown) it is amazingly good. But women are still leading and have been for pretty much recorded history.
This is also only covering the extreme cases of caring for the elderly, or ill, or handicapped. It doesn't address the day to day support women offer there family and community above and beyond the call of duty. House watching, dog walking, baby sitting, sending all those getwellcongratulationscheerup cards, cooking for sick friends or new moms...
[quote]So going by your words one must conclude that your male friends do not bath for days and live in a place harboring antibiotic resistant strains of staph infection. |
Yes this is true. They also often take too long between laundry days. They're guys, they're young. I really don't know how to justify it for them. It is just one o' those things.
Anyway, on a closing note. I would love to see your reply on this, it has been fun, but we are pretty much just playing a game of he said she said ring around the rosy here, and it is really eating up more time than I am willing to spend on it. I know I said I was time rich but I should actually be spending quite a bit of it, reinforcing the honorific language forms I covered last semester before I forget all of it and have to learn them all over again.
Like I said: agree to disagree. Although as a parting shot I would like to point out that I am the only one who even attempted to offer any info based on quantifiable data (although as attempts go it was pretty meh.)
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Yep. I am using to much time myself. We will just have to end it on the note that it is your opinion that stay at home moms are more busy than anyone while my opinion remains working dads are just as busy as stay at home moms. It's been nice getting to know you a little bit and I wish you the best in wherever your future studies make take you.
BTW, thanks for the pointers on removing the "leisure" label and inserting the "mission" label in it's place. I'll have to remember that one. I must say though with 21,000 posts that sure seems like a lot of leisure time to me. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 08/03/2011 13:26:21 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 12:54:21 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by bngbuck |
| As always, I don't make claims, I express opinion. |
Is that a claim or is that your opinion?
| The FSM "claim" is as self-evident to Pastafarians as the Christ/God/Trinity bullshit is to Christians. |
That's nothing but your silly little opinion.
| My opinion is that all of you motherfuckers are certifiably insane. |
My opinion is that you need to settle down. It's not safe for you getting all worked up like this at your age.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2011 : 14:17:01 [Permalink]
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There was an article recently in Time saying there is more equality between the sexes these days in terms of workload. I only skimmed the article and did not check their sources or analyze it in terms of accuracy. It may also be different based on region or socioeconomic class.
I do think taking care of children is one of the harder jobs around. Other types of work you get to talk to adults periodically. You can also take quick breaks occasionally if needed. It can also be boring at times. I love my 4 year old son but I get tired of reading the same stories over and over. I force myself to do it because it makes him so happy.
It is interesting that more women use facebook as a way to comment. I know that I have time to comment but don't have much time to really research a lot of topics
I am wondering how much of women's self confidence or lack of self-confidence influences their making comments or getting into the heat of an argument |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2011 : 13:10:08 [Permalink]
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Bill scott.....
| Is that a claim or is that your opinion? |
I am sorry for your eye trouble. I don't make claims, I express opinion. So does everyone else that speaks of information that they believe they possess. Some scientists today come admirably close to achieving certitude - science provides the finest distillation of opinion (starting as speculation and eventually processing into what is called fact) that man can offer at this point in time.
It is my agnostic (highly probable) opinion that religious beliefs of all types don't even come close to "fact statements", and those who express them have some type of cognitive disorder.
It may be possible that someday "fact" of all kind will be sufficiently refined to merit having its current definition:.... | something that has actual existence : EVENT b : an occurrence, quality, or relation the reality of which is manifest in experience or may be inferred with certainty; specifically : an actual happening in time or space <fact in its primary meaning, as an object of direct experience, is distinguished from truth> <stubborn facts> <given facts> c : a verified statement or proposition; also : something that makes a statement or a proposition true or false |
However, it is my opinion that all "fact claims" must be properly couched in terms of probability..| The FSM "claim" is as self-evident to Pastafarians as the Christ/God/Trinity bullshit is to Christians. |
| That's nothing but your silly little opinion. |
What's yours?
If you are serious in your use of the word "silly" (unlike my use of "motherfucker"), why do you choose that adjective to describe my opinion regarding Christian (or Muslim, Judaic, etc.) religious delusion? | My opinion is that you need to settle down. It's not safe for you getting all worked up like this at your age. |
Well, I appreciate your concern for my physical well being, but proper nutrition and pharmaceuticals are doing a marvelous job of reducing my apparent age, and I have little concern for the chronological number until it reaches three digits.My psychological profile is competently reviewed, as is my cardiology and endocrinology. Your advice is well-intentioned but not appropriate for a man in his sixties.
Besides, settling down is not, as Dave might say, my style.
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 08/04/2011 13:17:32 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2011 : 15:05:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
I don't make claims, I express opinion. So does everyone else that speaks of information that they believe they possess. Some scientists today come admirably close to achieving certitude - science provides the finest distillation of opinion (starting as speculation and eventually processing into what is called fact) that man can offer at this point in time. |
Interesting: there are no facts, only opinions. This makes your insistence that you are stating your opinion both redundant and dumb.| However, it is my opinion that all "fact claims" must be properly couched in terms of probability. |
So, "the sky is blue" and "I don't make claims, I express opinion" are both completely improper "fact claims" since neither is couched in terms of probability, correct? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Women skeptics
